Speeding Rule Idea

Mark_Weyhrich

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I have been thinking about a concept that will take away all ambiguity and the need for "panels" of drivers to decide whether there was intent to "cheat" or whether a driver made an "honest" mistake. The idea is to have a simple, concrete decision matrix that shall be driven completely off of the data presented by the IRC units on each vehicle.

I have run it by many drivers in SCORE and BITD and all seem to like the idea, but I wanted to get a more broad base to shoot holes in the idea before presenting it to SCORE and BITD. Here goes:

Assumptions:
1. The current SCORE rules penalize participants for every data point above the posted speed limit
2. The typical GPS unit that most everyone runs can have up to a 5 second lag (From Lowrance)
3. This lag means that you are "cheating" before you even know it
4. IRC records approximately 10 data points/mile
5. At 60 mph, you travel approximately 1/4 mile in 15 seconds
6. At 60 mph, you have the possibility of being penalized every 6 seconds (Every 264 feet)
7. By the time YOU KNOW you are speeding and correct that speed, you have incurred a minimum penalty of 1 minute
8. This can happen repeatedly as you attempt to maintain an optimal speed relative to the posted limit
9. Keep the SCORE point system in place for penalties

Now, you may say that the solution is to go 5 mph below the posted limit. I can tell you that it takes about 1/16 of an inch too much throttle to throw you over the edge. And, after you have been racing through the dirt pressing on that pedal as hard as you can for hours, it is very difficult to be so precise.

Additonally, 1 or 2 mph can make a substantive difference over long stretches of "limited" running, such as those we see at the Baja 1000. In a 44 mile section, with a 60 mph speed limit, you will lose 3/4 of a mile for every MPH you are going slower than another vehicle. So it matters if you are not as close to the limit as you can be.

Last, don't forget that in the vast majority of these vehicles, the driver cannot even see the speedometer (GPS). Rather, the speed data is relayed to him/her via verbal communication from the co-rider.

All that being said, here is what I propose:
1. ANY data point that is 5% over a posted speed limit shall be a 1 point penalty (Equivalent to 30 seconds)
2. Two consecutive data points over a posted speed limit shall not be penalized, so long as neither of them exceeds the 5% tolerance
3. Three consecutive data points over a posted speed limit shall result in a one point penalty for each MPH in excess of the limit for each data point (Same as current SCORE rule)

I believe this would allow competitors a better opportunity to comply with the rules set forth by the sancioning bodies, while not being unfairly penalized for "honest" errors made while trying to adjust their speeds. It is not much different from NASCAR; you can be over the speed limit, but your average speed for a trap section cannot be over the limit.

Comments?
 

Wild bill

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sounds good. Something needs to be changed and you idea is viable. I look at it this way.....when 80% of the TT field is penalized for speeding then something is wrong. Not 80% of the field would intentially speed (i.e cheat) especially when EVERYONE is aware that SCORE is watching. That alone proves that system is flawed.
 

pdailey

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I think that is a viable option. However, the guys that got a lot of penalty minutes must have known that they were speeding or really pushing it to the edge. I see it is a bigger problem with the unlimited guys as well. Why not do what Robby did and install a rev limiter of some sort? It can't be that expensive and it it obviously worked.
 

Mark_Weyhrich

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I think that is a viable option. However, the guys that got a lot of penalty minutes must have known that they were speeding or really pushing it to the edge. I see it is a bigger problem with the unlimited guys as well. Why not do what Robby did and install a rev limiter of some sort? It can't be that expensive and it it obviously worked.
Sure, you could ask everyone to install an electronic rev-limiter and/or ask everyone to upgrade to the new GPS systems that update 3 times per second. My thought was to propose something that could take advantage of existing equipment, would not add more cost to the racers and would make it easier for the sanctioning bodies.
 

Code3

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I drive a single seat 10 car with no GPS. I guess I am just old school! I just dont have time to look at it and there isnt time to normally!
 

Josh @ DanZio

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Baja 1000 special at DanZio!!!
Pit lane speed buttons installed on your race vehicle!!!!
We can do Any and all systems!!!!
Hurry now!! Space is limited. No reason to spend thousands of dollars racing just to get penalized. We are here to help!!!!
 

LIL ROG

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what if in a given speed zone say 30mph one data reading comes in at 29mph and one at 31mph what if for every data reading at or below the speed limit would cancel out one that was above the speed limit within reason. So in this instance the 29 would cancel out the 31. So for a race team that is really trying to follow the speed rule a couple blips over 30 wont effect them.
 

Vtr_Racing

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Ask the racing orgs, to give the "EXACT" distance that is the speed trap. Do the math with what they want as the acceptable MPH. Time yourself when you enter said speed trap. It takes "X" amount of time to go "D" amount of distance. Time yourself through there and dont go under the time its supposed to take at said MPH. As long as the entry and exit points are marked properly, this would eliminate some of the problems.
 

Lifeflight

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I love this. Now we have guys that want to run up to the edge and not get penalized for going over because they want or need to run up to the absolute edge. Nascar says they give you 5mph over their pit road speed and they run up to 4.9mph over all day long thinking they are safe then if they go .1mph over the 5mph allready allowed they totaly **BAN ME****BAN ME****BAN ME****BAN ME****BAN ME** when they get dinged with a pass though penalty. Difference here is that Sal says 1mph over and your done. So what you the racer needs to do is just bite the bullet and keep your car or truck 5mph under. It seems pretty simple to me.
 

trent06

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But very little. I bet he just forgot to hit the button early enough. Point is, it worked. I wonder what Roger Norman and Rusty Stevens did to not get any penalties? We should be asking them. They figured out how not to speed.
Roger was asked this on TORR the Wednesday after the race. He said something to the fact that in the 30 MPH zone he and his co-rider aim for a 27 mph. Knowing the delay as soon as the co rider saw the GPS over 27 mph he would tell Roger to let off. He said that going 1 MPH over isnt worth the penalty you get and that any real time that can be made up is going to be out on course and not in a Speed regulated zone. Now my numbers may not be exact, but I remember him saying something like this.

what if in a given speed zone say 30mph one data reading comes in at 29mph and one at 31mph what if for every data reading at or below the speed limit would cancel out one that was above the speed limit within reason. So in this instance the 29 would cancel out the 31. So for a race team that is really trying to follow the speed rule a couple blips over 30 wont effect them.
This was exactly my initial idea in the other thread, just compute the average and if is is what the regualted speed limit is then your good, but as I was told in the other thread Sal and Score do not make these speed limit rules, it is the company (Reliant) that owns the bridge etc. and if Sal doesnt enforce their regualtions we may lose that piece to race on. I think Mark did a phenominal job trying to come up with some sort of solution to make both the racers and Score enforcing the penalties happy, but even if Score likes this idea they will still have to pitch the idea to the Reliant bridge owners and have them conform to it as they are the ones who tell Score what speed limit to enforce. Either way, I think that if something is to be done it needs to be cost efficient. As of now I am on the ship of just follow the speed limits and if the dictated speed limit is 30mph then go 27 to take into account the margin of error the GPS has. Now I am not sure if what all I said is certain, but as far as the Reliant Bridge it was my impression they dictate/choose what the speed limit is. If I am wrong someone can correct me.
 

Offspring

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The difference I see is nascar has established the speed limit, which is not the same at all tracks, for the safety of the pit crews/others on pit road and they have elected to allow some room to exceed those limits. SCORE has established a pit area speed limit as well as these other speed limits at the request/mandate of ranch owners/officials in Mexican government/BLM for the safety of the general public who are using these same areas during the race, and these folks don't care much about the minute details or complaints of those involved. They have set a maximum and won't accept anything over it, Sal's hands are tied.
 

klaus

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- Get a speedometer that runs of your driveline instead of a GPS that lags.
- Play it save and drive 1-3mph below the allowed speed limit. Loose some seconds.
 

J.COLEMAN

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I think it sounds logical Mark.
 

pdailey

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- Get a speedometer that runs of your driveline instead of a GPS that lags.
- Play it save and drive 1-3mph below the allowed speed limit. Loose some seconds.
That's what we did and we had no penalty. If everyone else did that, no problems. If that one guy wants to push the envelope, so be it. But be preprared to suffer the consequence. Maybe a gentlemans agreement is in order?? Haha. Yeah right!!
 

nimrod

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Baja 1000 special at DanZio!!!
Pit lane speed buttons installed on your race vehicle!!!!
We can do Any and all systems!!!!
Hurry now!! Space is limited. No reason to spend thousands of dollars racing just to get penalized. We are here to help!!!!
SHAM WOW!

Will you please get a hold of your buddy Pab and help him out!!!



PS. Next time you bring that big ol super duper off shore boat around can I get a ride in it? I'll help clean it.
 

BSchlimme

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I have been thinking about a concept that will take away all ambiguity and the need for "panels" of drivers to decide whether there was intent to "cheat" or whether a driver made an "honest" mistake. The idea is to have a simple, concrete decision matrix that shall be driven completely off of the data presented by the IRC units on each vehicle.

Comments?
Mark,
I commend your efforts and energy to work towards a better solution to this problem.

While I don't have a dog in this fight currently I have followed it and totally agree that SCORE needs to provide a concrete penalties to those that violate their sanctioning body rules and NOT rely on a third party source to enforce their own rules.

Whatever the metric to determine the violation is it needs to be explicit and communicated to the racers and SCORE should not rely on third party interpretation for fault.

Black and white as it can be then rely on "tuning" the rule if necessary with future cases.

My 2-cents.

Ben
 

joe1369

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Is it possible for the drivers that broke the speed limits in a certain area, serve that penalty in a PENALTY AREA right after that section, then they know about the penalty, and have a chance to push it to make up some time, take some chances, making it a strategy game for the drivers and crews??? Or is this impossible??? Thoughts???:D
 

Lifeflight

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It seems to me most of the hub bub about speeding acures with the unlimiteds and TT's. As far as i know most of these cars and trucks run some form of modified stock trans like a turbo 400 or C6. Well if you do have this type of transmission, just install a stock speedo cable with a guage from AutoMeter and a little gearbox " available at precision speedometer in Anahiem". I have one in my Chevy and its just about dead on with my 35''BFG's to sync the tires to the speedo that fits between the cable and transmission. Now the driver can look at his "stock style" real time speed and then he will be in control of his speed. We all drive down the road with one without relying on GPS to tell us how fast we are going. I know it's harder with a VW as the stock cable ran off the front though the spindle, but there must be a system like ones used on our mountain bikes and motorcycles that run off the front hub. Why can we have exotic crank triggered ignition systems but it seems imposible to put a real time speedo in our cars.
And yes i know exotic FORTIN , MENDEOLA, etc. dont have a port for a speedo cable. Maybe they should. They have everything else.
 
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