Take that Eco Nazis! =)


Well-Known Member
From the LA Times:

U.S. Seeks to Reopen Area to Off-Roaders
Desert: Plan would overturn Clinton decision that curbed use of sand dunes.

March 28 2002

The federal government wants to overturn key parts of a Clinton-era
decision that helped preserve a large patch of desert dunes in southeastern
California, a move that would reopen thousands of acres to off-road
vehicles, officials said Wednesday.

The U.S. Bureau of Land Management declined to discuss the new plan in
detail. But several officials said it would allow at least limited off-road
vehicle access to thousands of acres in the Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation
Area where off-road vehicles are currently banned.

The proposal will be announced today or Friday, officials said. Roy Denner,
a Lakeside resident who sits on two citizen panels that advise the BLM on
use of the desert, said the proposal would reopen 15,000 acres to off-road
vehicle use with no limitations. Another chunk of land, he said, as many as
35,000 acres, could be opened with strict limits on the number of riders
each day--probably about 500. The plan--a draft, subject to a 90-day public
comment period once it is released--is expected to become official by the
end of the year.

Word of the plan has enraged conservationists, who thought their campaign
to control dust pollution and preserve sensitive plants and animals, many
of which can survive only in the dunes, had been won.

The new plan would trump portions of a November 2000 legal agreement
between the BLM and a group of environmentalists who filed a federal
lawsuit largely to protect a rare plant they said was being decimated by
off-road vehicles.

The settlement banned off-road vehicles on 49,000 acres of the recreation
area. Those curbs were seen as temporary until the BLM enacted a permanent
plan to manage the site. This new proposal is part of that plan, which
conservationists say will render the legal settlement moot.

"They are basically reopening the dunes," said Kristen Brengel, campaign
manager for the Washington-based Natural Trails and Waters Coalition, a
consortium of about 90 environmental organizations.

"It just amazes me," she said. "This is one of the most precious places in
Southern California.... We need to preserve it so it's there for future
generations to enjoy."

Michael Harrison, press secretary for Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-Alpine), a
congressman who has been closely involved in the preparation of the
proposal, said the federal government is merely taking "a common-sense
approach to solving environmental concerns."

Tony Staed, deputy director of communications for the Bureau of Land
Management in Sacramento, said the BLM is fighting hard to please all sides
in what has become a fierce battle over the public's right to use public
land as it sees fit.

"The bureau is trying to work out acceptable use of the desert to all
parties concerned," he said.

"I know that's a wide-open statement. We are doing our best.... It's trying
to achieve that balance that is so critical. I think we can do that."

Harrison and off-road enthusiasts made it clear Wednesday that they had
hoped to eliminate portions of the 18-month-old settlement as soon as
President Bush took office.

"The Clinton administration was very, very far to the extreme environmental
position," said Denner, who is president and chief executive of a trade
association of companies that cater to off-road vehicle enthusiasts.

"I don't think the new administration is swinging the pendulum all the way
in the other direction," he said. "The new administration has opened the
door to reasonable and balanced land management practices. We do not want
the right to run off-highway vehicles helter- skelter all over public
lands. But neither do we want to be closed out. And that's where the
Clinton administration was heading."

About 25 miles east of Brawley, the Imperial recreation area stretches
nearly 40 miles from the Chocolate Mountains to the Mexican border, the
largest dune formation in California. Some dunes rise more than 300 feet
off the desert floor, making them a suitable home for hundreds of species
of rare creatures and plants as well as a desirable site for riders of dune
buggies, Baja Bugs, motorcycles, trucks and all-terrain vehicles.

Because the area is so big, so isolated and so arid--average rainfall is
about 2 inches a year and summer temperatures routinely soar to 110
degrees--it is considered a unique habitat. Its many plants and animals
include the silver-leafed Algodones Dunes sunflower and 12 species of
beetle, ecologists say.

Some weekends, as many as 200,000 off-road enthusiasts swarm the dunes.
Thanksgiving weekend, law enforcement officials reported a stabbing, a
fatal shooting, an attack on a ranger who had pulled someone over for
speeding, and dozens of crashes that caused 200 injuries and two deaths.

Much of the environmental concern centers on the Peirson's milk vetch, an
endangered plant that grows only in the Imperial Valley desert.

Off-road enthusiasts have hired their own biologists who they say have
shown that the plant is surviving quite well.

And Harrison scoffed Wednesday at the environmentalists' efforts--"all in
purposes of saving a weed," he said.

Brengel responded: "First of all, it isn't a weed. Second of all, we need
to treat our land with respect. To just call it a weed and just throw your
hands up and say, 'Who cares?'--that's not the way land should be managed.
And that's not why Americans have laws in place to protect land and
endangered species."

John Garcia


Well-Known Member
"They are basically reopening the dunes," said Kristen Brengel, campaign
manager for the Washington-based Natural Trails and Waters Coalition, a
consortium of about 90 environmental organizations.
."It just amazes me," she said. "This is one of the most precious places in
Southern California.... We need to preserve it so it's there for future
generations to enjoy."...............

I HAVE YET TO SEE 200,000 PEOPLE DOWN THERE TO ENJOY THE MILK WEED..........................


Well-Known Member
it is unique because people have been DRIVING IN THOSE DUNES for 50 years! unique my ass. these are thye same people who would like to blow up the dams, eliminate freeways, and , oh yeah, get rid of cars, electricity, sawn lumber, textiles, fast food, plastics, steam turbines, etc...watch out, the U.N has supporters!

If your gonna go, go BIG


" We need to preserve it so it's there for future generations to enjoy"

Exactly... Enjoy. That translates into using it. Preserve it from the extinction of use.


Well-Known Member
Yeah, I saw that quote too. How can you enjoy it, when you can't get to it? There's no trees to hug, no spotted owls to save, no whales to watch. Can't they just leave us alone? What are they gonna do, hike it?? Yeah right.

Happy motoring, Tim


Well-Known Member
Here is another version of that story from the New York Times

March 29, 2002

New York Times

California Dunes May Be Reopened to Off-Road Vehicles


OS ANGELES, March 28 — Federal officials are proposing reopening land that had been off limits to riders of dune buggies and other off-road vehicles in the Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation Area, which in recent years has been the site of virtually unfettered chaos on holiday weekends.

A proposal drawn up by the Bureau of Land Management seeks to reopen 49,310 acres of dunes that were closed to off-road vehicles under a settlement reached in November 2000 between the bureau, a coalition of off-road clubs and three groups of environmentalists, who were concerned about the damage being done to endangered plants and animals.

"The administration seems to be abandoning a negotiated settlement that would provide a balanced approach to the use of the dunes," Daniel R. Patterson, an ecologist with the Center for Biological Diversity in Idyllwild, Calif., said today.

Mr. Patterson and other environmentalists believed that their settlement with the government precluded a retraction that would allow unlimited use by the off-roaders, who come in the thousands to race in towering dunes near the five areas that are currently protected.

"We're pretty much blown away by the fact that we have an arrangement between conservationists, off-roaders and the B.L.M., and approved by a federal court, and now the Bush administration is seeking to dismiss that deal," Mr. Patterson said.

The bureau's proposal says the area provides a "world-class recreation opportunity," and adds that with increased policing and monitoring the effects of the off-roaders and other users can be mitigated. One area, for instance, would be limited to no more than 525 vehicles at any time for the first year of the plan, with future numbers adjusted according to the effects on the landscape.

The plan, which has a 90-day comment period, calls for establishing curfews "in areas of historic lawlessness" and "limiting alcohol use to established camp areas."

But law enforcement officials have had difficulty policing the dunes, especially on weekends, when as many as 200,000 people come to the area, about 150 miles east of San Diego. Last Thanksgiving, there was a homicide, two stabbings, two fatal accidents and innumerable brawls.

Officials at the Bureau of Land Management, which has final say over use of the area, did not return calls seeking comment.

The environmentalists are trying to save endangered species like the Peirson's milkvetch plant, which is unique to the Algodones Dunes, and the desert tortoise.

"If they're not going to keep the areas closed where the plants and other endangered species are, then the plan fails to protect the American people's precious resources," said Terry Weiner, a botanist and coordinator for the Desert Protective Council, which seeks protection for Southwestern deserts. "You cannot appreciate the dunes if you're raging across them at 40 miles an hour with smoke in your face and deafening noise."

The November 2000 agreement was reached between the Center for Biological Diversity, the Sierra Club, Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility, the Bureau of Land Management and five off-road groups, including the Blue Ribbon Coalition, which says it has 600,000 members.

Dan Meyer, general counsel for Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility — which says it has 10,000 federal, state and municipal workers as members — said his primary concern was the bureau's own law enforcement officers, who are charged with maintaining order against often overwhelming odds.

"The rangers come to us because they're concerned about all that off-road vehicle traffic and, basically, how they're supposed to be traffic cops for thousands of off-road vehicles," Mr. Meyer said. "There's a real sense of lawlessness out there. It's something out of `Mad Max.' "

Harold Soens, a member of the California Off-Road Vehicle Association, which has sued the Bureau of Land Management over the earlier closures, said of the proposed change, "I think it's a good deal."

He added, "At the moment, you're putting more people in a confined area, and they'll eventually ruin the landscape."

The Algodones Dunes, which lie in a 40-mile swath north of the Mexican border, have been a source of controversy for years. The 32,240-acre North Algodones Dunes Wilderness, to the north of the area currently under revision, has been permanently closed to off-roaders.

The Bureau of Land Management document lists 80 animal and bird species and more than 60 plants found in the area.

<font color=yellow>Paige<font color=yellow>


Well-Known Member
HEH, Everyone beats me too it!! Whenever I come on here to quote that stuff out, some one gets it before me!! Im just a little late!! But its great to hear!!

" Hondas are like Tampons, Every Pu*sy has one!"


Well-Known Member
"You cannot appreciate the dunes if you're raging across them at 40 miles an hour with smoke in your face and deafening noise."

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! dam hippies.

It'll be interesting to see how that 500 people a day thing works out. That seems like a good idea to make everyone happy (including reasonable tree huggers) and decrease the craziness.



Well-Known Member
I appreciate the dunes the most when I'm "racing" across them!!! =)


- users no longer part of the rdc family -
Saw a news broadcast about this topic today. They tried to make it look as if it was party central with no control. The showed a fill clip of someone riding a quad through fire. The went on to say how dangerous it was with all the fights, stabbings and shootings. The funniest part was some weed lover kneeling down next to a weed saying how people need to be able to come out and enjoy the sights of nature. How the hell are they going to get there. Walk through the dunes to see a weed.


Always keep in mind that the media is for the most part opiniated. Most Television news stations are. We here at rdc are as a matter of fact (We are pro-racing, pro-Motor)...and its hard to do objective journalism.

Glamis has two issues that need to be kept separated but are not.
1. Juvenile behavior, Mayhem, wild and sometimes out of control parties.
2. Environmental Land protection.

A quad driving through a camp fire is Issue number 1. and has nothing to do with opening more dunes. Saving Plants and Wildlife. The mayhem party has only a minor effect on our environment. Air pollution (minor), trash left behind perhaps.

So why does the media show the 'negative' mayhem and in the same sentence mention environmental Land use issues ? The quad rider may kill himself and others, but no trees are effected by that.

Its just like all the other things in the news...a single angle of view and unless you do your own research you don't really know what is going on. For example watch the Israel/ Palestenia conflict on prime News Media such as CNN, MSNBC, FoxNews and then compare it to what BBC news reports....2 slightly different viewpoints on the same event.

Why can't we all get along ?


Well-Known Member
Klaus- these are good points to remember and something that should be pointed out.

when the cbd et al. sued to close the dunes, they did so after a request from the public employees for environmental responsibility(peers). the quote"rangers" asked for something to be done to protect them from the gang of thugs who had taken over the dunes. the suit was filed to "help" the rangers in dealing with the "life threat" they faced doing enforcement in the dunes. now you can see why i advocate strongly against any activities like those protrayed in crusties, etc... if you want to act like a juevenile deliquent, do it on your own private property! as for the other enforcement problems, these issues have been dealt with in other arenas, like the river. people still boat out there, it just isn't as wild as it used to be because of stepped up law enforcement. more cops = more hassles to those who do stupid or irresponsible things. eventuall, the irresponsible folks go someplace else because they don't want to be told what they can or can't do. the dunes are just the latest venue they have found where they can run amok because there is such a small enforcement contingency in place. more cops = less idiots = safer dunes = kept open.

If your gonna go, go BIG


Well-Known Member
So Martin, are you saying that the reason the dunes (and other lands) are being closed is because some people act like idiots there? Of all the issues the various extremists bring up, I haven't really heard them talk about this. But, you have gone to meetings, and I havent. I'll be going to my first one in a couple of weeks. Should I be ready to hear that sort of argument? I wouldn't want to be put in the position of having to defend some drunken fool endangering himself and others.

<Rant Mode On>
I always thought "Environmentalism" was a front for the Left who want to take from the self supporting and give to those who won't support themselves. These radicals stand behind trees, weeds, turtles, whatever, to defend their actions. What are their actions? Reducing available recreation area's, herding us all into the cities. They want to take away the dunes, and force feed us to watch TV ("The Real World") and have us believe it's "reality".

EnvironMENTALism is no more about the environment, than McDonald is about Fine cuisine.
<Rant Mode Off>

Happy motoring, Tim


Well-Known Member
tim- one of the major pushes for the closure was the benefits of safety to the the rabgers charged with patrolling there. I agree, I personally refuse to support irresponsible behavior and have fronted folks off at these meetings. As I Pointed out, the CBD used this as an excuse to help support the lawsuit. If you watch the current battle over this issue in the media, you will see folks from the green side bring up the lawlessness and danger to enforcement personell as their major argument now. the weed issue has died because their junk science was shown to be just that, junk.

If your gonna go, go BIG


Well-Known Member
If you use "Their" own numbers of 200,000 people on a big weekend and "their" own numbers of stabbings, fights and arrests...ect, now take a city of 200,000 about the same square milage and compare their satistics for a holiday weekend. I dont know the numbers myself but would be willing to bet that the glammis numbers are lower. I, for one, am glad to see the increase in patrol and crack down that is going on right now because I beleave that the majority of the problems are not caused by actual off-road enthusiest but others (mostly in 2 wheel drive street cars/trucks) looking for the "awsome party".

J.C. Andrews
Andrews Racing


Well-Known Member
"We're pretty much blown away by the fact that we have an arrangement between conservationists, off-roaders and the B.L.M., and
approved by a federal court, and now the Bush administration is seeking to dismiss that deal," Mr. Patterson said."

What "arrangement" are they talking about? This wasn't agreed upon, it was forced down our throats.

"But law enforcement officials have had difficulty policing the dunes, especially on weekends, when as many as 200,000 people come
to the area, about 150 miles east of San Diego. Last Thanksgiving, there was a homicide, two stabbings, two fatal accidents and
innumerable brawls."

This amount of criminal activity is minimal for the amount of people. I've seen more carnage at a Raider's game.

He who lives by the sword, gets shot by those who don't.


Well-Known Member
There was a "settlement Agreement" that was reached in the 9th Circut Court in San Francisco. What really happened in the Dept. of Justice rolled over like a puppy and said okay whatever. Cal4Wheel acted as intemediaries with the BLM (CORVA, AMA D37 and some other were not allowed to be intervenors) and they reached a settlement. The original suit was to close the entire desert...what the CBD and others are doing now is taking that original suit an piece mealing it in a zillion different lawsuits. So Patterson refers to that aggreement whenever we try and debunk the junk they are forcing on us...

What I have noticed is they are not mentioning in these articles the steps that are being taken to correct the problems of course it goes back to what Klaus said - they want to sell papers - our side doesn't sell papers, but the controversy does. As an example they aren't mentioning the $500,000 in funding the Imperial County Sherrifs just received to police the dunes on holidays, specifically thanksgiving...this grant came from green sticker money...The BLM rangers no longer have to worry about it - it's in the hands of the cops now - where it belongs.

What martin said about the issues brought up in the media is true - the PMV was a scape goat from the beginning - their public perception campaign from the outset was to portray off-roaders everyone as the dreges of society.

And I agree that to some extent their purpose is to put everyone in a little box and tell them how to live - the wildlands project is proof of that - they sell it as saving the wolf, the grizzly and eagle but get it done saving beeltes, weeds and other plants that if they weren't a means to an end of closing these places - they wouldn't care - we are just on a big list - along with miners, loggers, farmers, etc.

Did everyone see the flak of re-opening of the Klamith BAsin water for farmers? Here are people going bankrupt and they don't care.

<font color=yellow>Paige<font color=yellow>


Well-Known Member
paige- you need to post the article you sent me. it shows hoe junk their science is. the blm says there are more peirsons milkvetch now in the the open area than there was in 1977 when the last count was done. the cbd says that is because 1998 was a wet year while 1977 was a drought hear/ anyone care to guess how much rain glamis gets in a normal year? how about a drought year? and then a wet year. by their logic, the gov't needs to ban droughts! then they complained about the count in 1977 being done by plane, so there were fewer counted then and the count in 1998 was done on the ground, so more were counted. well, which is it? do they want the plane count with fewer plants as the one they should use for fact or the ground count with more plants? maybe we should also ban ground counts because they are too truthful and harm the cause! don't buy off on all this save bambi b.s., this is about controlling you, your recreation, and eventually your thoughts. according to them- we should all be living on "gilligans Island"!

If your gonna go, go BIG


Well-Known Member
Here 'tis

Yuma Sun

No one pleased with new dunes plan

Mar 30, 2002

The Bureau of Land Management's new plan for the Imperial Sand Dunes will likely create more tension between the two groups battling over public uses of the area.

The first draft of the Recreation Area Management Plan <font color=red>(RAMP - Tim this is what the meeting you are going to will be covering)</font color=red> would overturn the closure of 49,000 acres in the dunes to off-roading. About 15,000 acres would be completely re-opened to off-road use and the other 34,000 acres would be used as a "limited access area" while the bureau determined whether off-roading is having an impact on the wildlife, said Doran Sanchez, public affairs officer for the bureau.

The bureau's spokesman for the dunes, Stephen Razo, said to gain access to the limited access area off-roaders would have to fill out paperwork and pass a test proving they were aware of endangered species in the area. Razo said only 525 off-roaders would be allowed in that area at one time.

Off-roaders and conservation organizations both have their own agendas for the dunes. Conservationists, such as the Center for Biological Diversity, claim off-roading jeopardizes the existence of plants and animals listed on the Endangered Species Act. Off-roaders, like the American Sand Association, claim they have no impact on the wildlife and do their best to avoid it on their vehicles.

Neither of the groups is happy with the new plan.

The 49,000 acres of closures were implemented in November 2000 after the center and other agencies filed a lawsuit claiming federal agencies weren't doing enough to protect species like the Pierson's milk-vetch, which is listed as threatened.

<font color=yellow>"I expect that we will probably have to challenge BLM again and again," said Daniel Patterson, desert ecologist for the center. "Unless BLM wakes up and starts to manage the dunes for more than off-roaders."</font color=yellow>

Sanchez said the closures wouldn't be lifted until after the public comment period ends June 28 and a final decision is prepared and released for public review.

Though off-roaders now face fines for entering the closed areas, they don't view the proposed lifting of the closures positively. "It's like a guy robbing you and saying we'll give you half of the money back if you drop the charges," said ASA President Jerry Seaver. "Why should we be overjoyed that they reopened 15,000 acres after they took 49,000 acres from us?"

Sanchez said "based on what we have" the bureau has determined opening the closed areas won't hurt the milk-vetch. <font color=yellow>Razo said studies show the milk-vetch was more populous between 1998 and 2000 than it was in 1977. And it's flourishing more in the open areas than the closed areas, he said.</font color=yellow>

"We feel we can achieve a balanced use of this national resource," Razo said when asked if off-roaders and the milk-vetch can coexist.

<font color=yellow>Patterson said the bureau's count of plants from 1977 was during a drought year, while the study in 1998 was done during one of the wettest years in the past two decades. In the 1977 study, Patterson said, people counted milk-vetches from an airplane and in 1998 the counters were on the ground. So obviously, Patterson said, more plants were found in the latter study.</font color=yellow>

"It's totally unacceptable," Patterson said.

Patterson said the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service could overturn the decision if it conflicts with preserving species.

Another group angered by the lifting of the closures is Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility.

<font color=yellow>PEER'S California coordinator, Karen Schambach, said the bureau has a tough enough time maintaining law in the dunes with the closures, </font color=yellow>and she doesn't understand how they can do it by allowing off-roaders into even more areas.

"We're disappointed and hope that the final changes," Schambach said.

<font color=yellow>But Razo said it takes more manpower and resources to keep off-roaders out of the closed areas than it does to patrol them as an open area.</font color=yellow>

<font color=yellow>Paige<font color=yellow>


Well-Known Member
I wish this was all a long time ago.
Like if Patterson was my little sister and I could put a good thrashing on her, and then she wouldn't mess with me.
I would have stay in my room a little while, then everything would be cool. I get along great with my sister now, and I respect my parents. But, my sister never messed with me....

< Disclaimer mode on >
Tim Hayosh does not advocate violence. He is only pointing out a fact of life that we all know to be true. Big brothers will establish superiority over little sisters. It's just the way it is. Get over it. Nobody got hurt. Any similarity with anyone dead or alive is strictly coincidental. No animals or Milk Vetch were harmed in the making of this post.
< Disclaimer mode off>

Happy motoring, Tim