usmcgunrock

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Bronco Frame , Engine, driveline transmission etc, but not the rearend. (It’s a trussed race rear end) All electronics Including stock Ecu tune, no pumped up turbo, she runs on 91 octane pump gas, Steering, shoot even the shifter, most the suspension but not shocks, stock ball joints, bronco frame. Last year the cooling system was stock in the stock location and that was a problem. Still stock cooling but it’s moved to the back up in the wind like on a trophy truck. As long as you don’t race 1000 miles on the pipe you’re stock rig should be epic.
I’m a nimrod so don‘t take my comments as fact. Ford made a big deal out of being as much stock as possible.
You‘re mileage may vary, odds computed on day of drawing, everything subject to change.

You could totally build one identically with off the shelf ford parts, a cage, aftermarket desert rear end and Fox Shocks. Ford did put some money into the custom body with 1 off molds so that part might be tough but you could do it.

Where did you get your info from? I think you may have not looked very closely at it. Can’t be built with off the shelf parts from Ford. Unless they made big changes in the frame from when Gieser Bros built this one to the one that is being released then you can’t even get the frame under the stock bronco. Never mind I found the answer. It’s a f150 frame.
 

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Tom_Willis

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Regarding the marketing thing: saying it's "stock" means different things to different people. Saying we "won the Baja" also. When Kia brought 10(?) entries they got Sal to give them their own class. Therefore, as long as a single entry finished within the time limit then by definition they "won" their class.
 

Tom_Willis

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The GT Le Mans program received many multiples of dollars more than the Bronco program. The marketing objectives are completely different, and what is measured as "success" is completely different, too.

The GT program piggybacks on one of the greatest triumphs Ford ever achieved as a company, beating the Ferraris in Le Mans in the 60s. There's a movie about it and everything. The GT40 is a halo product and the program is a halo program, designed to boost the image of Ford as a company worldwide. Le Mans is a huge deal worldwide, much more accessible than Baja. Viewers can watch the whole thing live and see the sleek vehicles racing around. You're evoking history, so the goal is the same: weinning. So you spend many millions and enter multiple cars to ensure that you have a couple still running at the end.

The B1K is not about Ford as a company, but about the Bronco as a product. It doesn't cost much to modify an existing vehicle. $200k? $300k? I'm no expert but that's probably overstating it. And then you need to invest the typical amounts to invest in some testing and supplies and crew and drivers and logistics to run a single race, nothing remotely approaching the full world-travelling seasons produced by Ganassi racing. And all this so that you can say that the Bronco is "proven in the Baja." Which is nice, but that's about it.

Winning isn't the goal. At best, finishing is. Participation, with a near-stock vehicle.

If they wanted to launch a GT-level program, they could, and they would win. But there just isn't the ROI.
 

nimrod

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Where did you get your info from? I think you may have not looked very closely at it. Can’t be built with off the shelf parts from Ford. Unless they made big changes in the frame from when Gieser Bros built this one to the one that is being released then you can’t even get the frame under the stock bronco. Never mind I found the answer. It’s a f150 frame.

it’s a bronco frame. My info comes from being on the team.
it’s no different than a class 8 but with a lot more stock parts.
The front a arms are raptor
You’re right she’s not totally stock but Ford did try to stay as stock as possible. She’s for sure not as “custom” as she could have been similar to some other vehicles that only have a name plate.
Personally like I said earlier I’m super stoked on any manufacture that brings money, support, and publicity to our sport. I don’t understand the displeasure With Ford spending money in desert racing.

If you were at all the testing sessions ( over 4000 miles this summer in Parker) you’d have seen how dedicated to stock the engineers were. No ecu tune, had to stick with ball joints, things that would have really helped in The average mph at the 1000 were not allowed, not because the rules didn’t allow them but because Ford wanted to learn from the platform. A lot was learned that will benefit the guy that buys a new bronco.
 
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Tom_Willis

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Then why didn't Ford push the fact that the GT & Raptor share the same engine? The street version if the GT has more hours than the LM version did, and the off-road version of that motor (like Dan Chamlee has) also exceeds it. What's the point of a "Halo" car to create an image when Ford ceases production of every car but the Mustang?
 

stephenrjking

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I think you're responding to me here, but the format is confusing.

They weren't running the GT40 at Le Mans to sell Raptors. They were running it at Le Mans (and Daytona, and Sebring, and in various sports car series) to sell Ford. That's the essence of the "halo" concept. Regarding discontinuing most of their cars (in America, that is), well... they've closed up the program, so maybe that says something.

The people who care enough to know the similarities in engine between a GT40 and a Raptor are extremely plugged in car people or race fans. That's a small sliver of the target market. Ford is looking to reach the casual person who isn't watching the Baja tracker refresh or flipping on Le Mans at 2 am to see whether or not the third-place prototype is still gaining 3s a lap on the lead pair. They're reaching the person who is familiar enough with the words "Le Mans" and "Baja" to know that it means something. "Baja proven" in a brochure is more important to Ford than "we won a two-truck class with stock control arms."

"Halo" is all that matters. Consider that the most important vehicles Ford and GM make, by some distance, are trucks. But the most important racing series is NASCAR, which shares nothing but a vague exterior resemblance with any sold vehicle. However, the people who buy the trucks watch the NASCAR races, so they need their names in there.

In a similar vein, the move to hybrid vehicles in multiple series including, now, WRC and Indycar, is actually a halo issue. There is nothing proprietary about the hybrid systems (just as there isn't in F1) but manufacturers want to be able to market that they are racing hybrids. That's it.
 

nimrod

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I think you're responding to me here, but the format is confusing.

They weren't running the GT40 at Le Mans to sell Raptors. They were running it at Le Mans (and Daytona, and Sebring, and in various sports car series) to sell Ford. That's the essence of the "halo" concept. Regarding discontinuing most of their cars (in America, that is), well... they've closed up the program, so maybe that says something.

The people who care enough to know the similarities in engine between a GT40 and a Raptor are extremely plugged in car people or race fans. That's a small sliver of the target market. Ford is looking to reach the casual person who isn't watching the Baja tracker refresh or flipping on Le Mans at 2 am to see whether or not the third-place prototype is still gaining 3s a lap on the lead pair. They're reaching the person who is familiar enough with the words "Le Mans" and "Baja" to know that it means something. "Baja proven" in a brochure is more important to Ford than "we won a two-truck class with stock control arms."

"Halo" is all that matters. Consider that the most important vehicles Ford and GM make, by some distance, are trucks. But the most important racing series is NASCAR, which shares nothing but a vague exterior resemblance with any sold vehicle. However, the people who buy the trucks watch the NASCAR races, so they need their names in there.

In a similar vein, the move to hybrid vehicles in multiple series including, now, WRC and Indycar, is actually a halo issue. There is nothing proprietary about the hybrid systems (just as there isn't in F1) but manufacturers want to be able to market that they are racing hybrids. That's it.

I think some manufactures find value in racing hybrids. What Porsche and toyota did in lmp1 was pretty amazing with tiny engines and hybrid systems. I think the VAG reaped huge benefits from that r&d.
The Porsche and to some degree Audi move from LMP1 to Formula E was purely dieselgate devastating racing budgets in VAG.
 

usmcgunrock

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it’s a bronco frame. My info comes from being on the team.
it’s no different than a class 8 but with a lot more stock parts.
The front a arms are raptor
You’re right she’s not totally stock but Ford did try to stay as stock as possible. She’s for sure not as “custom” as she could have been similar to some other vehicles that only have a name plate.
Personally like I said earlier I’m super stoked on any manufacture that brings money, support, and publicity to our sport. I don’t understand the displeasure With Ford spending money in desert racing.

If you were at all the testing sessions ( over 4000 miles this summer in Parker) you’d have seen how dedicated to stock the engineers were. No ecu tune, had to stick with ball joints, things that would have really helped in The average mph at the 1000 were not allowed, not because the rules didn’t allow them but because Ford wanted to learn from the platform. A lot was learned that will benefit the guy that buys a new bronco.

I get what you are saying with spending money in the sport. Not knocking that. But when they sell it as a stock component vehicle it makes me look closer. Selling fact to me maybe wanting to buy one. Then you see it’s a marketing tactic. Ok I get that. But then to come on here and try the same thing with people in the industry that knows what they are looking at rubs me wrong. Why not just tell us what it is.

I stand corrected on the frame. It is a Ranger frame. But you keep mentioning ball joints, but I don’t see them? If the engineers were so into testing the platform why didn’t they take a off the lot bronco and build that? Like the halls or that FJ that use to race or the Kore truck, or Jeep speed 1700? I take more interest looking at those because they are bolt on parts that people could build. With them doing that it also helps the offroad industry because it pushes the aftermarket or even creates a aftermarket. Look how it drove the utv market. New factory platform, people in industry helps build it (making money), race it (org making money), allows the people who help build it with designed bolt on parts to get a head start and sell them to people who buy that same platform off the lot (making money). Instead of a one off car that only puts money in our sport when they build it.

BTW the info I have gotten on the Bronco R is from those who built it.
 

stephenrjking

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I get what you are saying with spending money in the sport. Not knocking that. But when they sell it as a stock component vehicle it makes me look closer. Selling fact to me maybe wanting to buy one. Then you see it’s a marketing tactic. Ok I get that. But then to come on here and try the same thing with people in the industry that knows what they are looking at rubs me wrong. Why not just tell us what it is.

I stand corrected on the frame. It is a Ranger frame. But you keep mentioning ball joints, but I don’t see them? If the engineers were so into testing the platform why didn’t they take a off the lot bronco and build that? Like the halls or that FJ that use to race or the Kore truck, or Jeep speed 1700? I take more interest looking at those because they are bolt on parts that people could build. With them doing that it also helps the offroad industry because it pushes the aftermarket or even creates a aftermarket. Look how it drove the utv market. New factory platform, people in industry helps build it (making money), race it (org making money), allows the people who help build it with designed bolt on parts to get a head start and sell them to people who buy that same platform off the lot (making money). Instead of a one off car that only puts money in our sport when they build it.

BTW the info I have gotten on the Bronco R is from those who built it.
Let’s be fair, they may not have used aftermarket parts that I can easily acquire, but they did employ people in the industry to both build and run it.

And it’s good for the sport when a manufacturer says “I want to send my new SUV to Baja” to prove it or to market it. Yes, they borrow the cachet to be able to say “Baja proven,” but that also tells a wide swath of people that Baja means something.

I guess I just don’t get the complaint. It’s better that they’re racing, rather than that they aren’t. It’s not the massive showy factory Trophy Truck program we’d all enjoy seeing, but there is no such program. At least they’re running a vehicle in the race.
 

usmcgunrock

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Let’s be fair, they may not have used aftermarket parts that I can easily acquire, but they did employ people in the industry to both build and run it.

And it’s good for the sport when a manufacturer says “I want to send my new SUV to Baja” to prove it or to market it. Yes, they borrow the cachet to be able to say “Baja proven,” but that also tells a wide swath of people that Baja means something.

I guess I just don’t get the complaint. It’s better that they’re racing, rather than that they aren’t. It’s not the massive showy factory Trophy Truck program we’d all enjoy seeing, but there is no such program. At least they’re running a vehicle in the race.

The complaint was stated in the post you quoted. It’s what is told to us in the industry about the program. Coming on a place like this telling us it is stock components or it can be built with off the self factory parts. To me that kind of insults my knowledge and experience when I can look at it and easily know it is a one off built car that is very hard and not even worth the money to reproduce.

Or when they put it on the highway last year because they couldn’t finish and drove it to the finish line to put on the box with a finishing flag. Just like they did the year they ran a raptor.

As for Ford being down racing what is the payback to the industry that they are racing their own one off car? So they paid a few people one time to build it. Even fewer to prep it. Not one of those people are able to take that experience and invest it back into the industry by using Fords prototype to provide improved parts for the platform that we may go buy and use down in Baja. I just think we put them on a pedestal when they are not really doing much for the sport other than helping a few guys by providing them one time build money.

Is factory being involved in racing good for the sport? Yes. But running the bronco R is not some put them on a pedestal thing. Contingency money and product sponsorship would be what really helps the sport and we should be putting our hype on that and not the bronco.

My $.02. Maybe I am a little skewed in my views because of the things I have seen and done in my life.

And this is RDC, someone had to start some drama right😎
 

nimrod

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The complaint was stated in the post you quoted. It’s what is told to us in the industry about the program. Coming on a place like this telling us it is stock components or it can be built with off the self factory parts. To me that kind of insults my knowledge and experience when I can look at it and easily know it is a one off built car that is very hard and not even worth the money to reproduce.

Or when they put it on the highway last year because they couldn’t finish and drove it to the finish line to put on the box with a finishing flag. Just like they did the year they ran a raptor.

As for Ford being down racing what is the payback to the industry that they are racing their own one off car? So they paid a few people one time to build it. Even fewer to prep it. Not one of those people are able to take that experience and invest it back into the industry by using Fords prototype to provide improved parts for the platform that we may go buy and use down in Baja. I just think we put them on a pedestal when they are not really doing much for the sport other than helping a few guys by providing them one time build money.

Is factory being involved in racing good for the sport? Yes. But running the bronco R is not some put them on a pedestal thing. Contingency money and product sponsorship would be what really helps the sport and we should be putting our hype on that and not the bronco.

My $.02. Maybe I am a little skewed in my views because of the things I have seen and done in my life.

And this is RDC, someone had to start some drama right😎

First off thank you so much for your service. I‘m very grateful personally.

No one said it was completely stock. The bronco is built on the ranger platform so you can call it a ranger frame if you want. you seem bitter. There are more stock parts than not stock. Anytime you want to meet me @ Baja HQ to go over it let me know. Geiser is no longer part of the program.

Yes it’s a one off, Sheeze it’s not in full stock for a reason. If you had a tube bender, a welder a Ford catalog and a nice credit card. you could build one.

I think you’re looking from one perspective and it sounds like someone wronged you at some point. I never said it was totally stock. The class description for class 2 is for unlimited modifications forced induction or na.

IT‘S NOT COMPLETELY STOCK. Happy?

Ford also has a Bronco racing at KOH and came onboard as the official vehicle of KOH. There’s more money being spent than you think and Ford has spent a grip in BITD over the years. Looking back over the history of desert racing I’d say Ford has been pretty consistent in supporting it.

ps. I have no idea what’s stock on Loren Healey’s Ultra4 bronco but off hand I’d say maybe the grill.
 
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Tom_Willis

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Who is Ford aiming the new Bronco at? The Overland gang? The man bun slash insta-tweet guys? Soccer moms who secretly like it a little rough? Because none of them are dreaming of Baja racing; or even GOING to Baja. That demographic is watching social media to see what to buy. If they were to offer a Coyote- powered version that snarled when you step on it that would sell out. But, a lot if those vehicles would end up stored rather than driven.
 

usmcgunrock

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Anytime you want to meet me @ Baja HQ to go over it let me know.

Sounds like a plan to me. I will buy the beer.

I think you’re looking from one perspective and it sounds like someone wronged you at some point.

I have been with race programs that have been kind of screwed over before when orgs make exceptions for manufactures because they are manufactures and when you raise issue with it everyone attacks you saying its great to have manufactures racing. I am happy Ford ran it in class 2, it shows respect for the race instead of building something and then pushing the orgs to change a class rules because that is the class they want to race in. And I really like that Ford has put up a great contingency pay back for their motors.
 

Anger Issues

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So.... the big question now is: Will they show up next year and want to race in Class 3 or want their own class (like the Raptor back when). It was stated it was built "class 3 legal" last year. I have to check my "turbo" rules. That cage tossed in-between that all tube chassis looks stunning, but is it legal? Once Ford hits 5000 units this should be a pretty interesting thread in it's own right. I, personally, hope the new Bronco brings some much-needed love to Class 3. On the other hand, racing against a geiser-built one-off (seemingly created before any parts were available) with full factory support sounds... uh... ____________. I'm at a loss for words. Raffo? Moss? Morton? Help me out.
 

stephenrjking

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ps. I have no idea what’s stock on Loren Healey’s Ultra4 bronco but off hand I’d say maybe the grill.
The grill looks vaguely Bronco-ish. But even with Healy I think they call his truck "Bronco inspired."

Frankly, they could push the branding more than they do, which suggest to me that the cash they're shelling out isn't that significant. Simply by being an IFS 4wd off road vehicle Healy's Ultra4 has more in common with its showroom counterpart than a lot of OEM branded racecars have with theirs. As it is, the branding seems respectably "honest" by the standards discussed in this thread.
 

Dave Cole 4454

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If someone rained cash on your head, some of you would complain about the humidity.

Having a company like Ford support our sport is good for EVERYONE.

The OEM industry is very much a follow the leader business. If you dont think so, why is Dodge releasing the TRX? Which is ironically the best thing that ever happened for the guys that insist they need a V8 in their Raptor ;)

Chrysler is TERRIFIED to race. I know this firsthand.

They were almost as scared of success as failure.

Ford craves winning.

All of the people sitting on their keyboards pining for the good ole days of desert racing when OEMS helped grow the industry are too busy complaining about UTVS and Broncos to see its coming full circle in front of their very eyes.
 
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