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The future of Class 3. In the "don't put a fork in it yet" category

retroblazer

Well-Known Member
People, these rules were not carved into a tablet of stone. All anybody is doing is expanding the competitive base of cars.
The EB Bronco is at a significant wheel base disadvantage and, no one is making you less competitive by allowing the choice of extending your wheel base.

Almost all of us that have raced in Cl3 are in agreement on maximum wheel base at 108". It' also a simple change to allow the spring choice to be open.
There isn't a Bronco racer I know that would change their multi-stage coil overs back to a stock type spring.

We don't need to blow the rules up, just tweak them.

Revert back to the pre-2006 rules, which covers updating and backdating, open spring type, and allow all cars to operate at the wheel base limit. None of these changes make any car in the class less competitive, but allows for Wranglers with V8's( same mfg.), as well those of us with Blazers the chance to coil overs or update to IFS.

The views against the rule changes are weak. Time to move forward.
 

blue dog

Well-Known Member
I tend to believe class8 was killed more by the advent of the Trophy Truck than rule changes.

I do not see it that way. It progressed to the point that class 8 trucks were trophy trucks with frame rails and no center pivot front end, yet they cost as much to race as a trophy truck. I wish it was still a steel cab class with linked rear, and same concept as original front suspension, no notched frame, but that ship has sailed.
Ever looked at the Pin 8 truck ? was as far from class 8 legal.

I am a believe that a few changes here and there over the years should help a class survive. Not so many changes that you have to scrap a car and start over though.
This i agree with, allow coil overs on all corners and use leafs if you want, set maximum wheel travel limits and wheel base length.
I am still surprised that that a well built TTB truck has not knocked the Moss bros off the top of the hill. Anything you can do to help out a solid front axle while racing the desert is a blessing.

Tweeking the rules will aid in adding new trucks to the class, if not, The moss bros can race themselves to a championship year after year. I have nothing against the Moss Bros, they run a tight ship and have a well dialed in vehicle as well as a great support crew for support.

Again, what ever happened to the Pikes Ram charger ? Did the pikes ram charger run a 1/4 elliptical rear end?
 

flyingford

Well-Known Member
One thing I would like to remind everyone that there was a class for 4wd vehicles that were streched, or had motor or suspension modifications that did not fit class 3 rules. Anyone remember class 4??? This is a old debate and my two cents is that maybe we need to rebuild class 4 and let class 3 stay as a stock production class. Class 4 would include jeepspeeds, ultra 4's or any modification that aren't legal in class 3. Hey problem solved. Rebuild class 4 it is.
 

Fandango

Well-Known Member
Flyingford, you're correct there was a class 4 that eventually became class 14. Back then class 3 included pick ups and was a stock production class. Stock back then was pretty stock. When they separated short wheelbase form long, shorts got 3 while pickups became class 4. 14 was my favorite class but I never built one. In the late '80s the class was on the chopping block so I just started racing locally in heavy metal instead of 3 out west. The Jackpot races in the '90s were the best. Ha, I got so much junk laying around, I could build a 14 for the price of shocks.

The Pike's Ramcharger was in the ads a while back. http://www.class3racing.com/showthread.php?t=785
 
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flyingford

Well-Known Member
Ok I know class 4 was merged with class 8. Most class 8's arent 4wd now. I think there should still be a class for modified 4wd. Or do what VORRA did. Its called group T. It combines several truck classes into one class. Class 8,7,3,1450, trophy lite, 7200 and lines them all up and run them in one class. On paper in the desert they are very close on time. As with all desert racing sometimes slow and steady is best. This class is always very competitive and gets large turnouts. Always fun to see a class 8 who has a couple flats get beat by a class 7 who just keeps running all day. This class is where we will be racing our class 3 bronco next year.
 

retroblazer

Well-Known Member
Now I don't feel like the Lone Ranger anymore. I'm a Bronco nut. Always have been and always will be and this is the class that I love. Its one of only a few original classes left in desert racing and I'd hate to see it destroyed like class 8 was by "opening up" the rules. There I said it but at the same time I know my voice doesn't count for squat but it feels good knowing there is someone else that feels the same way

If you want a long wheel base 4x4 class then lobby for the return of Class 4. I'm sure Rod Hall will through in his support.

It is no surprise that the only objections to changing rules in this class have come from Bronco owners on very weak logic or reasoning. Your notion of what ruined Class 8 is a fallacy.

Class 8 rules were forced to change because there was factory money and involvement at one time. Rules interpretations had to get more open, to equal the competition between brands. Finally free of this endless rules fight, the TT's were prime to grow and takeover, starting as open 8's. with the advantage of starting in front.

Is Class 8 expensive, yes. Is building a new class 3, whether the Pikes' Dodge or the last two Broncos built for the class expensive, absolutely. Straightiff and Wilson are early on the curve with theirs, but if someone had to write check for any of the three, you would pay close to the same money to get an 8 built.

1. Do you object to the return of the pre 2006 rules? Do you understand that Moss's Bronco was made illegal by the change and why?

2. The 108" limit won't change. Everybody that has a car already has agreed. We all, with one or two objections, have suggested that the current rule that allows for up to 2" of added WB, but not allow cars to shrink to get below the limit, is nothing short of stupid. Really stupid. So, why are you objecting to the obvious?

3. Opening the springs.. The rule should be open. Coil overs for all, or none. With a new tech guy, a coilover , with a multiple spring stack and stops, might not be legal for a stock type front spring. I assume you have c/os on the front of your Bronco? Again, why are you objecting to this change?
 

Chris_Wilson

Well-Known Member
Just a comment on the cost to build an 8 vs. a 3. With the longer wheelbase of an 8, you can use more horsepower. A competitive "built to the limit of the rules" class 8 is a lot more expensive in several areas:
700+ hp engine
racing fuel
more expensive transmission to handle that power
more expensive rear end to handle that power (10" gear etc.)
likely 39" tires which is more stress on parts so...
trophy truck hubs needed (3.25 snouts)
better brakes needed
and lastly the faster speeds wear parts out faster so prep costs are higher
Having just built a highly competitive class 3 ourselves and buying all the parts, I would say the labor and chassis costs to do an 8 would be about the same as a 3 but the parts costs would be about double. Huge difference.
I have heard the Geiser built 8 of Ampudia cost about the same as a trophy truck to build. Some say more.
Regardless of the actual cost, it is WAY more that even the trickest class 3 costs to build. And it's all because the long wheelbase enables higher speeds and speed and power shoot costs through the roof. The 108" wheelbase limit, and the requirement for 4x4 are basic performance limiters which in turn limits costs.

Now it is true that we find ourselves racing in class 8 anyways but we are outgunned. We figure a 1275 mile baja run is a bit of an equalizer but in a sprint like san felipe we would get SMOKED by a competitive class 8.
 

retroblazer

Well-Known Member
Let's not get side tracked on building costs. Nothing is cheap. a working 4WD IFS front end costs more than an 8, by far, like $30k in parts to start, no including any fab. Your ttb front end, if one had to pay someone to fab and buy parts, not including a 4"+ body shocks., would still cost more than a typical I beam set-up. If we went to Curt Leduc to build a comparable part, it will would cost serious money. A custom transfer case, as used in Pro 4, is over $50k. Transfer cases are open in class 3. My point is Cl3 is not a budget class with a bunch of stock parts. The option is already there to spend as much on a 3 as for an 8.

Back to what we agree on: Keep the wheel base at 108" Qualifying cars can add or subtract x (4"-6") or pick a #
Open springs
Revert to pre 2006 rules.
 

wdbunch

New Member
It is no surprise that the only objections to changing rules in this class have come from Bronco owners on very weak logic or reasoning. Your notion of what ruined Class 8 is a fallacy.

WILL IM GLADE TO SEE SOMEONE WANTS TO RACE CLASS 3 (NOT DRIVE ALONE LIKE MOSS).

I BEAT MOSS IN CLASS 3 IN THE 2001 BALA 1000 WITH A JEEP SPEED 1700 CAR WITH 10" OF
TRAVEL AND A STOCK 4.0 IN LINE 6 MOTOR FROM A JUNK YARD, I ALSO BEAT HIM FOR THE
SCORE YEAR END CHAMPIONSHIP.

NOW IM RUNNING CLIVES OLD 3700 JEEP WRANGLER. UP TO THIS LAST RACE (PARKER BLUE WATER) THE WRANGLER HAD A 4.7 STROKER THAT RAN FUEL WITH ABOUT 350 HP @ $12,000.00 EACH WHICH BLOW UP ABOUT EVERY 3 RACES, PLUS FUEL, IN MEXICO UP TO $15.00 GAL AT AROUND 4 MILES PER GAL! WHICH I RACED IN SCORE CLASS 3 AS WELL AS JEEP SPEED 3700.

HAPPILY CLIVE WANTED TO GET MORE 3700 CAR TO RACE SO HE OPENED THE 3700 RULES TO ALLOW CHEVY V8 IN WRANGLERS WHICH IS A COMON ENGINE FOR KING OF THE HAMMERS WRANGLERS, THIS BROUGHT SEVERAL CHEVY POWER HAMMER CARS TO RUN 3700! PLUS A NEW CHEVY V8 CRATE MOTOR COST FROM $3000 TO $7000 COMPLETE, LAST FOR SEVERAL YEARS AND RUN ON PUMP GAS!

HOWEVER SCORE NOW SAID NO CHEVY V8 IN A WRANGLER IN CLASS 3 UNLESS THE OTHER CLASS 3 RACERS AGREE, MAINLEY V8 POWERED BRONCO'S. ALL AGREED TO LET ME RUN CLASS 3 WITH A CHEVY V8 EXCEPT MOSS! IF HE CAN'T BEAT A JUNK YARD 6 THEN V8'S WOULD BE OUT OF THE QUESTION! COME ON MOSS MAN UP!!!!

CLASS 3 WITH A 105" WHEEL BASE AND COIL OVERS, AVAILBLE IN WRANGLERS FROM 2006 ON,12" OF TRAVEL IN THE FRONT AND 14" IN THE REAR , MY JEEP WILL ONLY GO 100 MPH WITH THE STROKER 6 OR THE V8 BEFORE IT STARTS LIFTING OF THE GROUND AND BECOMES UNDRIVABLE?

AT 71 YEAR OLD OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS I'VE DRIVEN THEM ALL TT TRUCKS, 8 7, 3, BUGGIES
BUT CLASS 3 WITH UP TO 108" WHEEL BASE AND 4 WHEEL DRIVE IS THE BEST FOR THIS OLD GUY!
 

flyinbronco

Well-Known Member
This i agree with, allow coil overs on all corners and use leafs if you want, set maximum wheel travel limits and wheel base length.
I am still surprised that that a well built TTB truck has not knocked the Moss bros off the top of the hill. Anything you can do to help out a solid front axle while racing the desert is a blessing.

Tweeking the rules will aid in adding new trucks to the class, if not, The moss bros can race themselves to a championship year after year. I have nothing against the Moss Bros, they run a tight ship and have a well dialed in vehicle as well as a great support crew for support.

Again, what ever happened to the Pikes Ram charger ? Did the pikes ram charger run a 1/4 elliptical rear end?
Well Blue Dog I'm curious if you've ever raced in and completed within the allotted time limit a Score Baja 1000 or any other off road race for that matter? If you have you'd know how difficult an undertaking it is on man and machine. For the Moss Brothers to do this every time they have entered one is a remarkable achievement that many other racers can attest too let alone winning it so many times in the class. Any smart racer will tell you they are not racing their competitors as much as they are racing the Baja peninsula itself.

It's hardly their fault that class 3 entries have been dropping year after year unless you consider them winning races year after year as the driving factor for the declining number of competitors. It really pisses me off when someone with no experience thinks it so easy to do in such a limited class.

When you put your money down to enter an event you have no idea how many people will show up to race against you. What are they supposed to do if only a few others enter? Pack up and go home or just go for it and try to beat as many other racers that start around you and try to beat Baja itself? I think its the latter.

Now onto Raffo's post.

There's nothing illegal about the Moss Brothers Bronco. In fact its as closer to stock than any other truck that's showed up to race against them and they still manage to pull off win after win. Even beating TTB equipped high dollar built late model Broncos more than once.

Adding 2" of wheel base is not going to bring in new or different trucks. It would take more like 6" of wheel base to accomplish that.

You and I both know the only rule you want changed is allowing coil overs on your Blazer end of story.

Again my voice in any rule change is mute as I currently don't have a dog in the fight I'm just a fan and crew member of the Score Class 3 Champions.

Finally I should put in the following disclaimer: My posts are just that MY POSTS. I am not speaking for Don, Ken or any other member of the Moss Brothers Racing team.
 
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wdbunch

New Member
Nothing is cheap. a working 4WD IFS front end costs more than an 8, by far, like $30k in parts to start, no including any fab.
IF CURT LEDUC QUOTED YOU $30,000 FOR PARTS PLUS FAB YOU NEED TO GO TO SOLO MOTOR SPORTS. THEY JUST INSTALLED THE CHEVY V8 IN MY JEEP WITH THE BEST 4WD FRONT END
PART AND FAB MONEY COULD BUY FOR LESS THAN $10,000.00!
 

GATRELL

Well-Known Member
Why can't we all just get along?? Yeah, I think it sounds funny too. Think we just need to come up with a list of proposed ideas of possible changes and submit to SCORE and BITD(maybe Casey will recognize class IF we start having some kind of numbers again
Not to exclude anyone but anyone submitting a vote needs to demonstrate owning or realistic future build in class. Otherwise, it would be like me butting into a rule change in Class 9, non of my business. Look how popular NORRA is, that whole premise is Class 3. The horse is tender enough if you get my drift.
 

GATRELL

Well-Known Member
I should have rulebooks dating back to about 1980. Will go through them and see come up with and maybe that will shed some light on stuff. When the class had jeeps, Scouts, Broncos, Toyotas, Blazers, etc. Hmm, gee, they all had the same suspension type. Maybe thats why I remember racing one Mint with 32 entries in class.
 

retroblazer

Well-Known Member
Billy, Nice to hear you're kicking!!! There appears to be a suspension of the obvious as it comes to understanding current class 3 rules, and maybe you can help. When the 2006 rules change went into effect, it locked the engine into the specific chassis. In pre 2006 rules, engines were limited in cylinders to what might have been an option, but any engine within the manufacturer's offerings, as long as it had the same block material. Before, Savage would tell the Ford Bronco guys they could run 460's if they wanted. Early Bronco's run 351W's because the engine is from Ford, not because it was ever offered, as an option. When the 2006 rules came into effect, all of that changed. A 351 Windsor, as run in the Moss Bronco, would not be a legal option to build today. It violates the rules that say the engine must come in the chassis it was available. PERIOD It was an M motor only. No Windsor ever was offered in the 78-79 Bronco chassis. Is it a V8? yep in the previous rules it was legal. No longer. Big block, no longer an option.

I commented regularly on the build thread for your Jeep. It would have been ideal to see the car built with a standard 5.9 Mopar based engine. It takes exceptionally stupid people to want to intentionally shut out one of the largest aftermarket platforms, a Jeep, from the sport. Oh yeah, it's the longest running 4x4 platform. And they still make them.

Focus on this:

1. The return to the pre 2006 rules would allow the Jeep to run any AMC or Mopar motor, 5.9's or Hemi's. or

2. Open spring rule- coilovers

3. 108" + or - something

In spite of the background noise in this tread, there are at least these three items that almost all of us can agree upon.
Money talks, the other stuff walks. I'll pay my 1st entry fee, in advance, if I get to vote.
 

Chris_Wilson

Well-Known Member
We need to give Moss time to get back from Baja after winning yet another 1000 and championship and listen to his opinions on all this. I think Moss and myself are the only class 3 that have run SCORE at all this year. Out of respect for Moss and his years of dedication to class 3, I'm not willing to support any rule change at SCORE that Moss is not on board with, as long as Moss wants to keep racing class 3.

So if Moss is opposed to a SCORE rule change, then lets put this rule package together for some other series and go race.
 

blue dog

Well-Known Member
Well Blue Dog I'm curious if you've ever raced in and completed within the allotted time limit a Score Baja 1000 or any other off road race for that matter? If you have you'd know how difficult an undertaking it is on man and machine. For the Moss Brothers to do this every time they have entered one is a remarkable achievement that many other racers can attest too let alone winning it so many times in the class. Any smart racer will tell you they are not racing their competitors as much as they are racing the Baja peninsula itself.







Why yes, Thank you for asking. Mostly SCORE, Some BITD, since 2000, stock full for many years, and various other classes. Still have my helmets with lots O tech stickers on them, hanging in the shop.
A race is a race, and racing a series By your lonesome does not make a class champion.

As years go by, bigger horsepower trophy trucks and 1 cars with bigger tires tear up the course more and more everyday in front of you, giving the class 3 a bigger disadvantage, More the reason to allow a rule change to give the old school underdog class a fair shake.

I have no dog in this fight, i do not own a class 3, yet, if there was more interest and more entries, i would contemplate building a class 3. I loved the pikes ramcharger, and went as far as having many discussions about it with McComas during it's build, as well as after.

Back in the day, the thing that made stock full fun was the group of guys that were there { Handley, Kroeker, Griffen, Hen, the Hall's, Foutz, worthington Spirkoff etc etc, everyone got along and helped each other out, there was no ego, it was just a group of guys racing trucks that were very competitive with each other { except that spirkoff f250, that thing was fast }

Just finished reading the Jeepspeed 3700 rules, and found myself picturing a linked j10 with a i beam front end.
How many 3700 vehicles are there ?[/QUOTE]
 
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wdbunch

New Member
WILL IF YOU THINK WINNING IS SO GREAT WHEN YOUR THE ONLY CAR RACING?

SCORE OFFERS A JEEPSPEED CLASS 3700 I COULD RACE IN ALONE AND WIN ALL THE TIME BUT I WANT TO COMPETE!

THAT WHY I HAVE WON YEAR END CHAMPIONSHIP IN SCORE, BITD, HDRA, LARANA, JEEPSPEED,
M.O.R.E. AND ACOUPLE OF OTHERS I CAN REMEMBER!

MOSS WOULD BE LUCKY TO BEAT A GOOD UTZ, IF THERE WAS ONE HE WOULD RACE!

COME ON CHRIST LETS RACE!
 

BarrelRoll

Well-Known Member
I don't really have a dog in this fight but here's my 2 cents.

If you want to modify your class 3 to add coil overs/ wheel base changes what about entering the ultra 4 class? I believe SCORE and BITD both all ready have the class. Only rule is you must have 4x4 and a t-case with low range.

I haven't paid attention lately but I believe on occasion a couple ultra 4 cars will show up and race.

More cars racing ultra 4 may lead to even more cars racing. I believe around 200 different drivers have taken the green flag this year in an ultra 4 sanctioned race. The cars and the drivers are out there. It's just convincing them to race the big name desert races.

If an ultra 4 car can keep it together they can almost keep up with the front running class 1 cars, that's a big if on keeping it together. Prep on a high end IFS ultra 4 isn't cheap though the straight axle ultra 4 I was involved with the prep on was decently cheap to race.
 

retroblazer

Well-Known Member
This is an open process. Don has heard all of this before, and has stated his views on class3racing.com I had also mentioned a couple of pages ago that we would do this after the 1000. I don't know whose input SCORE will take on making a change in this class. If it's only the last two entries from Club Bronco, then we know this is going. Sometimes promoters have to make rules adjustments because some teams owners can't get out of the way of change. The three main changes that have been offered will be summarized, and sent to SCORE by Dec. 1, by all of the car owners that are interested in a rules change.
 
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