The Vision Thing

rdc

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I personally think that you what needs to happen is a series that has both short course (LIike CORR) and open desert. I also think it needs to be of only a few truck classes and maybe a few buggy classes. I know the little guys are going to say hey what about me. Well I'll I can say is that is how the world works. Do you see TV coverage of all the back woods circle track races? Not really if ever. Where do you think NASCAR drivers come from? Most of them have been going left for a long time and have moved up through the ranks. So to all the budget racers. You can can have it two ways, one where you support TVcoverage of the top classes only and have the knoledge that if you are a good driver you have a chance of moving up to the big leagues, or two bitch and complain because your car is not getting on TV and slow the growth of the sport down or prevent it all together.

How we get real TV coverage of desert racing. Current problem is being able to tell FOX, ESPN, whoever the number of people that want to watch such a race on tv. Do you think the TV stations can sell ad time by telling their customers " we think this many people watch" ? I don't think that goes over well when your asking big $$$$'s for a 30 sec spot . We need to provide a head count to the TV powers. It is out there and we all know it. But they need proof! That is where the dual series comes in. You get 50 to 80k to show at a short course race here in SoCal and now you have proof. Now the TV gods have a reason to dump 250k to cover an open desert race. They then would know that Bubba and all his cousins are going to be sitting around the boob tube to see their favorite driver rip through the desert!

TV brings huge sponsors with big wallets. This means big prize money and paid drivers. Yes I said it PAID DRIVERS!!! So who out there doesn't want that? Well I know there are some but I won't go into that. I would like to ask anyone who drives a 5-1600, 1-2 1600, 9, 11 " do you think you have as much talent as they guys in TT,1,10,8,PT ????" . I think some of you have as much if not more. Would you like to see a change where people with talent get just as much a chance to drive in the upper ranks as does someone with the money to just buy their way in? I am by no means saying that anyone in the upper ranks has no talent. I think everyone who gets behind the wheel has talent.

This is just a rough draft of how I see it needs to be to go big..

But Paige has hit on the most important thing " WE MUST ALL COME TOGETHER". That is the only way it will work, EVER!

Tony
 

sirhk100

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Let me preface this with the fact that I'm not very knowledgable of the off road industry but I do know a lot about off road as a recreation :)!!! Anyways, can someone give a simple or general overview of the racing scene and why everyone disagrees? It seems to me from someone that sees off road racing as a group of people racing against others in different classes with similar vehicles that it wouldn't be too difficult to come together and choose one group to promote huge races. I'm sure there are insane details that I don't know about but from the outside it seems like you need to gather the racing community together and agree on the promoter that puts on the best race. Then at the same time form classes and rules. I would think that having just one promoter would draw the support and money from the industry. Maybe charge entry rates determined by class. I would guess that most people want to see TT so they would have the highest entry fee and the biggest purse. Go down from there.

Doesn't ESPN show regional shows or is it only national? If it's regional it seems like a goal would be to at least get it on in the southwest so that they could see if it got ratings. Get some famous names narrating it. I'm sorta outta the racing scene but is Ivan S. still racing? He is huge and lots of people outside the scene know his name. Obviously to begin with I doubt they would do live coverage in fact I don't think they could because of the spread out racing. Do they show live ralley racing? I don't think so, it seems to me it's always a updated show on the progress of the racers through each stage on speedvision.

Sorry if this has no value, I honestly don't know because like I said earlier I'm not real in tuned to the details. I just know it's really cool to see all you guys out there hauling azz through the roughest stuff nature has to offer!!! Thanks to all of you racers for the entertainment you bring people like me!!!!!!!!!

'99YZ400,
'92 Ford Exploder lifted work in progress,
lifted golf cart
 

robert_encinas

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i think to make it happen we need a giant short course race once a year for starters (riverside, willow springs,phoenix),that to me would be the way to get started as far as exposer.it works well for corr. 2 classes of vehicles per episode; heavy metal,mini metal; class 1 and 10 and so on the way it used to be.to me if we had a World Championship race like this the sponsors will come back and so will t.v. .. to say offroad racing is dead is totally wrong , paige is right on this one , its just more spread out.
 

Curtis Guise

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On the Rally subject... I was in the book store last night checking out mags. I saw a mag called Rally XS, printed in the UK. I just flipped through it, but it looked like a great magazine. All full color glossy prints. Huge two page pictures of cars 4' in the air etc. etc ..... Looked like some great articles, and good race coverage also.

We need this.......

actually we started to have it, but unfortunately they couldn't make it for some reason.

Curtis
 

Curtis Guise

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Also in response to Juniors post about how Rally gets great coverage and how.... I think anyone that saw what was put together for the Mini Metal Bash in Primm can see that good coverage is possible. All it takes is many camera persons, on board cameras and alot of work and dedication. That production was based on all volunteers including myself.

Imagine what could be done with a budget / backing by large companies..... and airtime on TV.
getting that is the big problem.
 

TimHayosh

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Man, I was gonna delete this post, but it was too late! It's cool to hear everyone chime in. This discussion is very interesting, but one of my main points hasn't yet been picked up (it seems).

What I was trying to bring up for debate was having an organization by, of, and for racers that would oversee competition. In this way, the promoters would promote, and we would have a body separate from them making sure the rules are fair, promoters operate fairly, and the media is accomodated. Additionally, this body could provide incentives for the promoters to do more to involve those at the begining phases of competition. As the SCCA calls it "a vision". Promoters seem to have a very full plate. I can easily understand why they would not/could not take a more pro-active role in the over-all growth of the sport. It seems to me that if we don't look at our sport from the bottom to the top, we will continue to wonder why we don't grow.
 

martininsocal

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Thi stuff has been brought up over the years and it always comes down to the conclusion, something is wrong, but no one wants to be in the fix it seat. promoters are too busy, racers don't have tha power, tv can't spend the money for proper coverage, consolodation never has the power to enforce on promoters, etc... nothing is ever gained without some initial sacrifice, heartache, and effort. to get the promoters attention, the racers need to act in a united fasion to force promoters to get on the same page. what happens to a promoter when no racers show up? they either change to draw racers or they change professions! big races? they are possible, but it will require the small promoters to beon the same page as score. why? marketability. score owns THE NAME, the baja 1000. this race has been proven to have name recognition around the world. a race has to have personality, aura, recognition, and character. the baja has it. other races that did? the frontier 500, the mint 400, riverside.
take these 4 races, run them for 2 years as a series, and you will have big races. as one post above says, too many races, same number of racers. also, this is a regional sport right now. don't try to get national coverage, yet. make a product they come looking for, not that we have to sell. also, make the sport more fan griendly. less classes. period.

If your gonna go, go BIG
 

rdc

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These are for those of you who have e-mailed me on the Rally subject.

http://www.specialstage.com/</A>
http://www.californiarallyseries.com/</A>
http://www.scca.org/</A>
http://www.swrt.com/</A>
http://www.rally.subaru.com/subral/index.html</A>
http://www.scca.org/amateur/performance_rally/</A>
http://www.bensrallypage.com/</A>
http://www.rallyusa.com/</A>

These are just a few but cover all the different types of Rally racing. Lots of cool pics, specialy on the SWRT site. Check it out.

<font color=red>Rally Expert<font color=red>
 

StandOnTheGas

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Dang it Paige you have such a great grasp of the problems/opportunities facing off road racing. Sal has told me that he could not get the other promoters to get together because they have a "good old boy network" where the promoters get favors from people in exchange for favors from the promoter so they are resistant to change.
What is needed:
1) Coast to coast rules for four "national series" classes. Stability in those rules 2-5 years
2) A sanctioning body that is not a promoter.
3) A person or organization with the time and money to "heard us cats"
4) Improved media coverage including TV
5) Title sponsor
6) Manufactures support on a national basis
7) An organized, documented and supported system for racers to move up the ranks to the "national series". Qualifiers, points system, championship provisionals, etc.

Sal should hire Paige Donahoe and Doug Siewert to make the above happen. I will work as a consultant with the manufactures to obtain sponsorship in exchange for free entries!


THROTTLE DOWN
 

MNotary

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Tigger, did you just repeat what I said? Martin, you are wrong on the National thing. Tim, you are half right, but do you drive a 9 car? Stand on the gas, close.

OK, once more.

2WD truck to do a national series. Rules: 24 inches of travel, 500 hp max.

Support races that match the area that will make a large field of vehicles. Desert race: 1/2-1600, Lite/10, 7S Short course: 1/2-1600, 10, 7S

A drivers organization or a leader that will pull all the drivers together. The drivers that don't agree will end up quitting or fall in line, there won't be anything else worth doing.

It amazes me that there are racers that think racing in a field of 10 or less cars is really racing.
 

Kritter

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MNotary, before being condescending, why don't you fill out your profile? If you're so gifted as to the problems in off road racing then you should just fix them with your vast expertise and we could all be thanful to you.

I think Bruce, Tigger, and Tim have some good things to say.

Kris

When in doubt, GAS IT!
 

rdc

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LMAO! This is beginning to sound like the old board with the same old arguments

<font color=red>Rally Expert<font color=red>
 

TimHayosh

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Mike Notary said: "Tim, you are half right, but do you drive a 9 car?"

1.) You never really seemed to define what half I had right/wrong in your humble opinion.

2.) There's nothing wrong with a 9 car. (The beauty of that class is low cost of acquistition. I.E. more people can get into racing! But, this is a whole other thread!!) If by asking "...but do you drive a 9 car?" are you wondering why I would eliminate that class from the Top Level, then you didn't understand the whole picture as defined by "the vision document". Did you read it? I would agree with the masses that this class may not be as exciting to the un-initiated public as a trophy truck. But, there would be a place for this class (and all other current classes) in the regional (SNORE, MORE, MDR, etc.) races (EXACTLY as it is now.). A national championship for the "lower" classes could be invitational based on regional standings (at stand-alone "Limited Class National Championship events? [Just thinking out loud].).

3.) I am not at all offended by your comments Mike (as some may have been), I just want to understand what you mean.

4.) The attraction of moving "up" in class grows as the rewards for doing so grow. Thus, as one moves into "higher" classes, payback and exposure increase. As it is right now, one will earn more money finishing first in Class 9 at a SNORE event than for winning an MDR event overall. But, neither one will be shown on "Speedvision News". (Heck, even the Baja 2000 was little more than a 30 second spot. That is just WRONG!) With an agressive "Media Relations" department that would never happen again.


DISCLAIMER: The use of any particular promoter's name is strictly for illustrative purposes and does not constitute an endorsement or condemnation of said promoter. Peace out.
 

martininsocal

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mike-i think you mis-interpreted the national issue(i hope). if you feel that corr and score are on the same page, and somehow, the vehicles are the same, you are wrong. without a true change in rules(15 inches and 500 hp won't do it, you will still have specialized vehicles shortcourse and desert) there will not be a national series. how many folks supporting desert racing in maine? how many desert racers coming from florida? how many shortcourse drivers running the midwest series from florida? how many from california? most can't afford both types of vehicles with current costs. until there is a true rules package with a vehicle designed to perform in both desert and shortcourse that is somewhat affordable, folks will most likely chose one or the other. desert racing has a large following in the southwest, shortcourse in the midwest, stadium in canada. these are regional programs with minor national participation. i didn't say national can't happen, i said it is regional right now. this sport was more national in the '70's than now. if that was not the case, why did curt leduc relocate to the southwest from the northeast? because the support, the core, the majority of particpants are located in a like region. thats all. nothing wrong with it right now, but changes have to be made to go national. in my opinion.

If your gonna go, go BIG
 

MNotary

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Tim, there is my point. Las Vegas has a bunch of 9s. When the "series" comes to town, you go as a support race. When the series comes to the Midwest, it goes to their version of a 9. You could go, they can't come to you though.

You can talk about unification, getting everyone together, reducing classes... It will put alot of people out, you or me if 1600 or 9 goes away. (There is the half wrong, you/I support a class that shouldn't be.) And one of them needs to go. CORR: PRO 2 and PRO 4, why have two classes that look the same, cost the same (+/-) , go the same speed, and have a total of two trucks that can run for first. The rules for all the classes need help.

The answer is get the "big" racers to agree on a less expensive truck and make that what they race. Start the "series" around that, Baja and Mickey Thompson.

Or maybe we ARE the SCCA and lets make a place for anything with four wheels.

Maybe I will just stay out of it and do what works for me. But I would like to be able to coattail a big series and make some money on the side. Before it was CORR, there was some good money up there. I miss that part of it.

Tim, thanks for not being offended and you can say what you need to, no hard feelings here, just dialog.
 

TimHayosh

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Mike said: "...When the series comes to the Midwest..."

I guess I wasn't even thinking of including those from the CORR/SODA area. CORR works as it is! I am talking about desert racing. I have the highest respect for the Steinhardt, Seefeldt, Schwalbe types. I would never have even heard of them were it not for CORR's cooperation with the media. I believe that this series has basically done what no other single promoter has. Rules, Racers, and Media. My hat is off to CORR. Short course racing just isn't my thing.

But, the main direction I was moving in related only to those of us who race the breadth of the desert. Desert racing has much more in common with SCCA ProRally than it does with the short course events promoted by CORR.

Mike also said: "When the series comes to the Midwest, it goes to their version of a 9. You could go, they can't come to you though." I'm not sure what you mean by this, but it's a bit irrelevant in the light of leaving CORR alone, and organizing desert racers.

I not saying I'm in favor of any of this! Just trying to see how everyone feels.

"Herding cats"; how true!
 

rdc

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I would like to jump in here and say a few things.............

But Tim has already done it! Right on man.

<font color=red>Rally Expert<font color=red>
 

Donahoe

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All of these great ideas for getting our sport in the spot light and getting big.... But... Who is going to step up and do it??? Who is going to spend the time to follow through with these great ideas??? YOU??? I doubt it... You have a life. Me... AHHHH, No I'm to busy to sleep... SO how can it be done? With what money? Who is going to do it? What I'm getting at is why bother bitching about something you have no intention of correcting.... Its Stupid and sad. You all come on here with great ideas and totally real problems but NOTHING Ever gets done. Aside from Paige No one on this board has come up with an idea and ran with it. It you dont like something change it. If it gets momentume all of us will back it. But if we contuniue to bitch and not do anything about it nothing will EVER happen. Yeah the sport is not as big as nascar. Should it be? How competitive would Bruce Lanfield,S&S motorsports,Baja shop, Donahoe Racing, or Kyle Taylor be if the Factories came back????? They would loose the abillity to win races. Sure some of them might be the ones getting Factory backing but thats highly unlikely becuse the factories go after the guys with the big money anyways. Checks dont clear till the end of the year. So it goes down to the Big question..... WHY DO YOU RACE OFF-ROAD?? If its to be on the cover of a weaties box then you are in the wrong sport. I race becuse I love the desert. and I love trying to better myself from the last time I danced with her. and I dig the people. Off-road Racing is Far from dead. And if the Donahoes have anything to say about it we will make damm sure there is a place to race and the deserts stay open for us. Now ask your self the question. Why do you race off-road?

NEVER LIFT!!!!!
 

rdc

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MNotary, Yeah I did say some of the same things you did. But look at my post time, the lenght of my post and who I was replying to. I was at work also. So what I am saying is I was typing my post when yours went up.




Kreg, I think you nailed the nail on the head when you said " But... Who is going to step up and do it??? Who is going to spend the time to follow through with these great ideas??? YOU??? I doubt it... You have a life. Me... AHHHH, No I'm to busy to sleep... SO how can it be done? With what money? Who is going to do it? " .

And I would personally like to thank you and Paige for all your hard work you have done and will do for the sport of off-road racing......

Tony
 
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