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On Topic Too Late to Save: Another couple MILLION acres in CA Dez closed :(

Slippery P

Well-Known Member
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I don't exactly want to drive off road up a mountain. Specifically, what is lost in terms of existing trails? I'm not trying to be difficult, trying to understand.

e.g. 560,00 acres were already owned by a wilderness group. Of the 1.24 million acres remaining, how much does this impact trails?

Edit -- I read the article you linked to. Is the 142,000 acres of land being proposed for off road new, or existing?
Some of us enjoy driving offroad up a mountain (on an existing trail) which in some areas we will no longer be able to do. I really enjoy driving from our desert property in Landers up the back side to big bear in the dirt. We will likely no longer be able to do this.
You should do some digging into the wilderness group that already "owned" some of the land you speak of. Particularly how the buying and donating went down, who is behind the group, and others, some significant others involved. Corruption at its finest, with your tax dollars.

The trail where the pic in my avatar was taken is in these foot hills leading up the back side of San Gorgonio. This will now be included in the Sand to Snow monument, there are all kinds of trails in those foot hills, beautiful country back there. We just spent a couple days back in there during the week of KOH.
 
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Mike321

Well-Known Member
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Some of us enjoy driving offroad up a mountain (on an existing trail) which in some areas we will no longer be able to do. I really enjoy driving from our desert property in Landers up the back side to big bear in the dirt. We will likely no longer be able to do this.
You should do some digging into the wilderness group that already "owned" some of the land you speak of. Particularly how the buying and donating went down, who is behind the group, and others, some significant others involved. Corruption at its finest, with your tax dollars.

The trail where the pic in my avatar was taken is in these foot hills leading up the back side of San Gorgonio. This will now be included in the Sand to Snow monument, there are all kinds of trails in those foot hills, beautiful country back there. We just spent a couple days back in there during the week of KOH.
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My response was very clear that I’m inquiring about existing trails – I still don’t know what’s impacted? Do you?

Would you enjoy driving up El Capitán? It’s not drivable and it’s not worth fighting over. How much of this land falls into the same category?

In regards to the wilderness group’s land ownership -- I first became aware of it in the article. It’s their land, they bought it. They can choose to donate it to the park if they want or build the next amusement park – or build a fence and do nothing. If “we” bought the land and used it for off road would you want “them” stating, we can’t go off road on “our” land?

I don’t know anything about this group, but they are the title holder.

Is your picture in the proposed 146,000 acre off road area?
 
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Slippery P

Well-Known Member
Get a california trails book and compare the trails to the monument areas. We lost a lot in the sand to snow monument.

No none of it looks like El Cap, it is all drive able with many existing trails.

Again do some real digging on the wilderness group they are very anti-offroad, it's mostly public land with some private parcels which they bought up. A lot of it with tax dollars eventhough in the article it's stated as "privately funded". The land is then donated back to the federal government with the stipulation that it has to be designated as a national monument.

The buyer / land transferee is making money and closing public land doing so. The buying / transferring and donating of the land in the Mojave trails monument is even more of a circle jerk. Hint, hint, Blum-Feinstien Inc.- Catellus - Wildlands conservancy, there have been a lot of shady land transfers between these groups with inflated property values after the fact.
 
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Mike321

Well-Known Member
Get a california trails book and compare the trails to the monument areas. We lost a lot in the sand to snow monument.

No none of it looks like El Cap, it is all drive able with many existing trails.

Again do some real digging on the wilderness group they are very anti-offroad, it's mostly public land with some private parcels which they bought up. A lot of it with tax dollars eventhough in the article it's stated as "privately funded". The land is then donated back to the federal government with the stipulation that it has to be designated as a national monument.

The buyer is making money and closing public land doing so. The buying and donating of the land in the Mojave trails monument is even more of a circle jerk. Hint, hint, Blum-Feinstien Inc.
If I get the book what federal document should I refer to that lists the trail closures to make a comparison?
 

Slippery P

Well-Known Member
Any trail in the designated monument area will be closed to all motor vehicle use. All you will need is an overlay of the monument boundary.
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
Mike, you're being dense. If the new designations aren't going to change any land use, why make them? And that land use group you speak of, the Nature Conservancy, has been buying up private property and destroying any existing routes on them for decades. The route from Pioneer Town up to Onyx Summit at Highway 38 was chopped in half by one of their buys, making 2 dead end roads instead of a continuous route that went through from one destination to another. And not a single competitive motor vehicle even can occur in any National Monument. Over the snow travel is restricted. HUNTING will be restricted. Entrance to much of the Sand to Snow Monument will require a permit, like you buy at Glamis. Oh, and they are talking about restricting the AMOUNT of people allowed in the Monument at anyone time. The land Feinstein is talking about is a federal designation for the ALREADY EXISTING off road areas like Jonson Valley and Stoddard Valley and Razor and Dumont. Nothing new added. These are already existing OHV areas, this is just lip service. You want sand on that wiener she is slipping you?
 

Ol' Curmudgeon

RDC's resident crackpot
...any existing rights to use the land."
Please tell us where the right to mechanized recreation on public land is enumerated in the USC.

Driving is a privilege, right? :confused:

The government grants license to operate a vehicle in public only if that vehicle meets, and is operated in a manner that complies with, regulation.
 
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nimrod

KOOK!
For now it seems as if motorized use on designated trails will be allowed. From what I can find it mostly stops drilling, mining, ranching, and development. Supposedly it will allow the land to stay as it is with no development but it's current use will remain. There is ZERO money in these declarations for increased patrols, law enforcement or oversight so it should stay as it is but I have a hard time believing that.
 

calstyl2

Well-Known Member
Anyone who thinks this is a good thing has their head buried in the sand like a big dumb bird.
Routes will be closed in a public process where so called fairness and public feedback is accounted for.
Just like Johnson Valley..............
 

Mark Newhan

Well-Known Member
Wow! I leave for a day and seems I started a bit of a firestorm when I chose the wrong word. I said "glacier" instead of "iceberg". I also failed to elaborate on my thought process. I was referring to the "rising ocean temps", that we are lead to believe will melt all of the icebergs, just another one of the "indicators" of what "might" happen IF all of the ice on the globe melts. If anyone read the description in my original post, I think it would be clear what I meant. I'd happily take the ball busting over the word switch . Also, since the earth is a closed system, it might perhaps be that our drought is due to poor water distribution, kinda like a bald guy with a hairy back. Maybe we need the "glaciers" to melt off some of the crushing weight so they could manage themselves and return some water to the equatorial regions., just saying. And just for thought, the 230' water level rise assumes that 100% of every glacier melts and runs to oceans.

It does seem that several people on here have taken the side of the GW alarmist, which is fine as I respect everyone's opinions.... Seems somebody doesn't have the same approach to others opinions and has giving me my first ever negative rep, thanks for that, lol.

This topic has a variety of "sciences" being applied to it. "Scientists" have doctored up their "science" to suit their claims. What I don't get is all of the hysteria on both sides of the issue.

I like this approach. When you consider that there have been ice ages in the earths history, ask yourself this.... Why wasn't there only one? Humans have only been "poluting" the planet since the industrial revolution beginning in the late 1800's. I'm certainly not saying that we shouldn't be good stewards of the planet, but I do believe that using the planets resources is not a environmental sin. Everything that we use, make, manufacture and "exploit" came from this planet, so it is not foreign to the sphere, so it's not going to "kill" the environment.

Funny story. There is a diesel repair place next to my shop. All to often there will be someone parked in front of my bay door, and it pisses me off, especially when they get pissed when I ask them to move, but that's a different story/problem. One day inparticular there was an older guy parked in front of the bay door when I got back from an errand one afternoon. He was a bit indignant when I asked him to move. It was a hot day and in order to restore some civility, I asked him how his day was. He said in a utterly frustrated tone "well, I got to have a hollowed out catalytic converter on my (6.0) diesel to get it smogged". I said something like "bummer". (I have a later model Super Duty with a DPF and a converter and love that it doesn't stink, and of course I'm doing my little part to save the planet ). The man then made some reference to current events, so I engaged. He said that he was a retired teacher and left because the "kids today...". He then said something about his teachers union, to which I replied "wow, you got the good union". This is where the masks were off. After some light conversation he took the initiative to tell me that Hillary will be a great President, which made me chuckle in my mind. He instinctively went into the George Bush was the root of all evil in the world and right with tired left wing talking points he said.... We could've got Bin Laden in the mountains of "Bora Bora".... Yeah, he said that, which struck me odd since he was an accredited educator. He went on a railed against Iraq. Blah blah blah. When he was finished I told him, gently and without negative reppin him for the poor word choice that Bora Bora was an island in the South Pacific and that we couldn't have gotten Bin Laden there due to the Muslim custom Pashtunwali. I asked him if he had ever heard of Pastunwali, he said that he had heard of him, which is when I told him of the custom, all while never neg reppin him. I told him that a good buddy and colleague of mine worked for the state dept and was in that region after major combat was over. He and his crew went through those mountains cave by cave and erraticated Taliban remnants, although they could never enter Pakistan. On a subsequent trip they did, with the permission of the Paki's traveled the region and made arrangement with the tribal elders, but that another story. My buddy passed away in the region on a different mission (just mentioning that to show the toll of freedom).

Anywho, the catalytic converter guy goes on to tell me that the reason that we have all of this terrorism is because of global warming . This is another taking point of the left... The whole purpose of this story is to share the hypocracy of the topic. This guy was preaching the gosphil of GW to me WHILE he was illegally tampering with the smog device on his truck and letting me know how ridiculous having to run it on his truck.

For the record, I have a prerunner that does not require converters, but I installed them anyway. I have a '64 Plymouth I'm restoring and will install a converter on it as well. My diesel has all its smog devices although many have encouraged me to do the DPF delete. I've restored several Broncos for a good friend of mine and put converters on them.... Doing my part, lol.
 

Dirty Harry

Well-Known Member
right with tired left wing talking points he said.... We could've got Bin Laden in the mountains of "Bora Bora".... Yeah, he said that, which struck me odd since he was an accredited educator.
Is confusing Bora Bora and Tora Bora that different than confusing a glacier and an iceberg?

(Good thing this post wasn't flagged as "On Topic")
 

Mark Newhan

Well-Known Member
Is confusing Bora Bora and Tora Bora that different than confusing a glacier and an iceberg?

(Good thing this post wasn't flagged as "On Topic")
No, that was my point. and at no time was I disrespectful. He said he enjoyed our conversation and he wanted to come back and chat sometime.

Oh, and sorry, back on topic.
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
He is an educator, he knows more and better than you about how YOUR life should be lived. Give him the chance...
Then POP his balloon.
 

T Pacheco

Well-Known Member
Watch video from start to 9:40. National monuments, Wayne Hage, FWS/BLM land acquisition, Obama protected over 265 million acres of land.
Plenty of Info. out there if you care to search for it. It is really simple to do these days.
Not saying these videos are the Info. but the leads are there for further research.



 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
Thank you Trevor. Some folks just refuse to see the relationship that has evolved regarding these environmental NGOs and the Gov't itself. The rental relationship between Feinstein, her husband, Catellus Corp, the BLM, and the Gov't supported employee associations like P.E.E.R. that push this crap is really a punch in the gut.
 

T Pacheco

Well-Known Member
Here in this video, the Professor gets into more detail and has all the links posted. He has more vids on his channels.
Like Newhan says, these deals are done long before they actually happen.
You can read and connect the dots yourself. It becomes clear what has been happening and where this is going.
Talk to some loggers, miners (from the U.S.), ranchers and farmers about loss of land use for production. Now you can add off-road enthusiasts to that list as recreational use is being closed off.
"Travel Management Plans" = road/trail closure. Look at the big picture.
As Russell Means said "Welcome to the Reservation"

Thanks Bro_Gill. You have an in-depth knowledge, you should put it all into a video and share it on youtube someday..........soon.

 
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