V2R Quad/Vehicle Incident

Baja Dad

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wouldn't be my 1st choice either, but currently it's actually worse, after the trucks catch up and pass. the course is rutted out, but now I have to figure out how to get ouf the deep silty rutts and climb a 3ft berm without having a getoff in front of a truck going twice the speed trying to pass me and probably can't actually see me. on top of that, I'd have to stop more often to let them pass and it would take even longer. if I run after the trucks, I don't have to worry about stopping to let the trucks pass safely or risk getting rear ended by them. since nothing is probably going to change, because of all the reasons given, I plan to figure out how to ride faster (and yet still have the endurance) and get better on how to get out of deep ruts and berms in order to make the passes safer for me.



BIKES DO NOT BELONG BEHIND THE 4 WHEEL RACERS
I started the 1987 Score Great Mojave 250 where they started the bikes after the cars and trucks.
With in the first 5 miles I was passing 4 wheel racers.I had a Air horn installed on my bike but it only lasted about 50 miles of a 250 mile race. So I was having to kick there side/door panels with my boot due to the fact they could not see or hear a bike coming.
No thank you
NO WAY to dangerous.
 

cynicwanderer

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BIKES DO NOT BELONG BEHIND THE 4 WHEEL RACERS
I started the 1987 Score Great Mojave 250 where they started the bikes after the cars and trucks.
With in the first 5 miles I was passing 4 wheel racers.I had a Air horn installed on my bike but it only lasted about 50 miles of a 250 mile race. So I was having to kick there side/door panels with my boot due to the fact they could not see or hear a bike coming.
No thank you
NO WAY to dangerous.

well, I think saying "bikes" covers alot of territory. definitely, pro/expert bikes should be able to ride in front of the trucks. a sane solution (which is implemented in other forms of racing), is to start classes in order of how fast they are, i.e. pros/exports should go first, and then progressively slower classes, down to amatuers and sportsmen. you wouldn't really need large gaps then. as people improve they move up in the ranks.

if it were all about speed with no consideration to classes (e.g. ironman) then why bother having classes in the first place and everyone will just team race to win and the finish order will mostly be based on how much you can afford to spend to win it. pro bikes are currently in a special place, since it cost much less to win overall, but they do need a pristine course to do it.

I know that some feel that there shouldn't even be amateurs/sportman/ironman in V2R, because they are just too slow over a long course like that and it's dangerous for them. however, as long as the promoters accept our entry fees and we meet their safety requirements, we have just as much of a right to participate in the event as others.
 
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Honda48X

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I know the dust is bad but all bike rear fenders should have a flashing yellow or Blue light mounted inside the rear fender. This is just a small piece of safety that might help. Remember is just one tool in the tool box.
 

Chris Tobin

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I know the dust is bad but all bike rear fenders should have a flashing yellow or Blue light mounted inside the rear fender. This is just a small piece of safety that might help. Remember is just one tool in the tool box.
Take that a step further and run a flashing LED on the helmet or backpack of the rider too. This would help with rider visibility when he is on or OFF the bike...
 

dan200

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Take that a step further and run a flashing LED on the helmet or backpack of the rider too. This would help with rider visibility when he is on or OFF the bike...

Everyone SHOULD be all lit up. Cars/trucks/bikes should all have to have always on lights. It literally blows my mind this isn't mandatory already. It's not a solution but it would curb these incidents a bit and is easy to implement


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ACME

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BIKES DO NOT BELONG BEHIND THE 4 WHEEL RACERS
I started the 1987 Score Great Mojave 250 where they started the bikes after the cars and trucks.
With in the first 5 miles I was passing 4 wheel racers.I had a Air horn installed on my bike but it only lasted about 50 miles of a 250 mile race. So I was having to kick there side/door panels with my boot due to the fact they could not see or hear a bike coming.
No thank you
NO WAY to dangerous.


I raced that same 87 Great Mojave on an ATC and we too had to pass a ton of cars and only 1 truck passed me. I felt the same way at the time.

The difference between now and then is the top 4 classes have developed to a point where they are all faster than the best of the best was in '87, and now only the top handlebar racers are staying in front of them. The biggest issue is the slower handlebar guys or the sportsman racer who is running a conservative pace and is sometimes in survival mode. I'm not suggesting they don't belong as I think everyone in all the limited classes are the same as any TT team.

I just think the inevitable mixing of these slower bar racers and the faster 4 wheel vehicles is a bad idea.
 

Bdub 1020

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Are we really going to compare bikes racing against 4 wheel unlimited vehicles in 80s to current times. Man im old school but that's not a very good comparison IMO. Someone put a video up of TTs and 1s from the 80s and then one of current times. Oh and Dano my brother , I agree on the lights. But I remember a well named racer spraying wd - 40 on his rear amber lights so that the dirt would gather on it and make the light totally dim so racers could not follow his lines or keep up with him in the dust. True story. Just do not see the need to mix bikes and quads up with vehicles that can go 110 mph + through rough and dusty terrain. Common sense, let the egos go. Safety 1st or V-2-R will get shut down (fact)
 

cynicwanderer

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Take that a step further and run a flashing LED on the helmet or backpack of the rider too. This would help with rider visibility when he is on or OFF the bike...
we already run a flashing red light ont the bikes/quads. it's pretty bright when you're in line waiting for the start, but I wonder what the effectivness is on the course. I don't remember the flashing light to really stand out when I was following and getting ready to pass another bike/quad. so I'd say not very effective. are the other colors that stand out more in dust, then red ?
 

Bro_Gill

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When it comes to safety lights, LEDs are not always better. They are very directional and impact goes way down when viewed out of their directed beam. An incandescent works better for this type of use. Light is visible in most directions without loss of impact. I drove fire engines and other safety vehicles for 27 years and witnessed the changes and speak from experience.
 

Chris Tobin

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When it comes to safety lights, LEDs are not always better. They are very directional and impact goes way down when viewed out of their directed beam. An incandescent works better for this type of use. Light is visible in most directions without loss of impact. I drove fire engines and other safety vehicles for 27 years and witnessed the changes and speak from experience.
But LEDs draw less current and require less battery power to last the length of the race... Seems like BD or Rigid could come up with an LED Array in the best color to be seen in dusty conditions that is efficient and can be seen from a distance and on/off axis for rider awareness. It could have helmet mounts with 3M VHB tape as well as Backpack clip-on options and a pigtail that allows it to be run off 12V DC from a vehicle, bike or rechargable battery pack.
we already run a flashing red light ont the bikes/quads. it's pretty bright when you're in line waiting for the start, but I wonder what the effectivness is on the course. I don't remember the flashing light to really stand out when I was following and getting ready to pass another bike/quad. so I'd say not very effective. are the other colors that stand out more in dust, then red ?
I don't know the best color, but there are experts out there in the lighting field that should have the answer...

Also at checkpoints the staff could check for rear facing light operation/visibility. If it is off or not visible the team is held until it is fixed. This would prevent the WD-40 idea mentioned above... In cars and trucks they could easily carry an extra light and on bikes they could carry an extra battery pack and maybe an extra light...
 

FirePig

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we already run a flashing red light ont the bikes/quads. it's pretty bright when you're in line waiting for the start, but I wonder what the effectivness is on the course. I don't remember the flashing light to really stand out when I was following and getting ready to pass another bike/quad. so I'd say not very effective. are the other colors that stand out more in dust, then red ?
I was sitting at the end of pit 14 all night long and my impression was that little mandated LED light was just not that noticeable. In dust I doubt it would even be seen by someone approaching from the rear until the last second.
 

cynicwanderer

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in another life, I did a bunch of research on underwater lighting comparing LED, Halogen and gas discharge lights. in that application, there are definitely colors that show up better than others. e.g. blue vs. red. however, I'm not sure about dust, since it would depend on the type of material and what it absorbs, and the particle size. I suspect the best solution is white, since at least some of the lights would come through, no matter what the dust absorbs. With headlight/forward facing light, you will want avoid colors that reflect off the dust and cause glare, but in a rear facing light the reflection is not too important. you will definitely want to have a day and night mode on the light.

I would probably start with a white strobe light for the rear. LEDs are definitely the most energy efficient emitters these days, with proper design getting 130-150 degrees out of a single emitter is pretty doable, having a lens or multiple emitters can get you much wider angle. xenon strobes are still pretty efficient, but it's more fragile than a LED. plus it needs a more complex driver and the bulb lifetime isn't as long.
 

cynicwanderer

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I do think that a Alertrax type system will help, once all the glitches are figured out for the bikes. it would be nice if it could give the range to the next vehicle front/back, even when one of them is not stopped. I'm not sure if the current version is suposed to that or not, but it didn't work for me this time.
 

BajaboundMoto

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(IMO, right?) All these tracking / warning systems we've been forced to spend $ since '05 have been pretty much a joke.
There hasn't been a system yet that either tracks perfectly or warns correctly or both.

I'm speaking from the MOTO side.
Car guys this stuff might be awesome, I dunno.
But bikes are so limited on space, vulnerability, and powering ability. IF we were able to stay with 1 system for more than a few races we could have quality mounts and better reliability. But.... every few races is a different sytem.

Bike guys are DUMB for EXPECTING it to warn and save them.
Car guys maybe have a system that is working in their car so they to EXPECT it to work on the other end (biker) but it's not. I'm not saying the car guy is being dumb, but he doesn't know what he's dealing with in front of him.
ANY bike guy who's trusting these things is a fool. YOU need to be covering your own butt, not relying on the technology.

I used to be a big letter writer (constructive criticism) to SCORE. One of the many things that fell on deaf ears was I suggested all non-Pro bikers must wear a good quality reflective vest at all times over their gear. I don't mean a Harbor Freight one, I mean a good Cal Trans type one. Those things glow like crazy. And any Pro bike who's caught can't continue unless they are weearing one too.
Cheap insurance.
If we could paint the riders with the radioactive paint that Baja uses on their blinding road signs that would be better ;-)
 
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Chris Tobin

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(IMO, right?) All these tracking / warning systems we've been forced to spend $ since '05 have been pretty much a joke.
There hasn't been a system yet that either tracks perfectly or warns correctly or both.

I'm speaking from the MOTO side.
Car guys this stuff might be awesome, I dunno.
But bikes are so limited on space, vulnerability, and powering ability. IF we were able to stay with 1 system for more than a few races we could have quality mounts and better reliability. But.... every few races is a different sytem.

Bike guys are DUMB for EXPECTING it to warn and save them.
Car guys maybe have a system that is working in their car so they to EXPECT it to work on the other end (biker) but it's not. I'm not saying the car guy is being dumb, but he doesn't know what he's dealing with in front of him.
ANY bike guy who's trusting these things is a fool. YOU need to be covering your own butt, not relying on the technology.

I used to be a big letter writer (constructive criticism) to SCORE. One of the many things that fell on deaf ears was I suggested all non-Pro bikers must wear a good quality reflective vest at all times over their gear. I don't mean a Harbor Freight one, I mean a good Cal Trans type one. Those things glow like crazy. And any Pro bike who's caught can't continue unless they are weearing one too.
Cheap insurance.
If we could paint the riders with the radioactive paint that Baja uses on their blinding road signs that would be better ;-)
The reflective vest is a good idea and would be good for visibility (or at least some specific glow tape/ribbon sewed into/onto the riding gear). BUT, it wouldn't do much good unless all vehicles are required to run forward facing bright lights 100% of the time... Also, would the reflective vest/tape/ribbon be effectively seen through thick dust? Something else to consider, but the reflective idea puts the battery and electrical draw on the forward facing lights rather than on a riders back so it might be a good idea IF it is as effectively seen as an LED light/strobe of some kind through the dust...
 

Honda48X

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OK we have lots of bicycle riders up here in Seattle and I head to work at 0400 every day. I can see these bike strobe headlights so far away it's crazy. I say try them facing backwards and see if that makes any difference. I bet it would.
 

Chris Tobin

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Probably better to keep with a red or other color rear strobe as it would not be as bad on the overtaking driver's vision and night vision... If you think its bad having a TT behind a bike trying to overtake, I would think it would be a lot worse if he is blinded temporarily by lights!!!
 

Baja Dad

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(IMO, right?) All these tracking / warning systems we've been forced to spend $ since '05 have been pretty much a joke.
There hasn't been a system yet that either tracks perfectly or warns correctly or both.


I used to be a big letter writer (constructive criticism) to SCORE. One of the many things that fell on deaf ears was I suggested all non-Pro bikers must wear a good quality reflective vest at all times over their gear. I don't mean a Harbor Freight one, I mean a good Cal Trans type one. Those things glow like crazy. And any Pro bike who's caught can't continue unless they are weearing one too.
Cheap insurance.
If we could paint the riders with the radioactive paint that Baja uses on their blinding road signs that would be better ;-)

I raced the Baja 1000 back a few years in class 50 with a bunch of old Team Honda riders from the 80'S
Needless to say we fell behind...(Not do to me :) ).............. When I got back on the bike in El Arco I new it would be dark before I handed the bike off . So on went my jacket!!! ( Great planning makes for a safer race )
I Bought a Cal Trans Safety jacket. I then Cut it up so I could wear it Over my Gear and Neck brace.
Knowing that the TT's were catching us fast I went off on my way . I was just about to San Ignacio when I saw lights coming FAST! I the first 2 TT were on me>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I moved off the main track and they flew past......
In short After the Race I had a TT driver come up to me and thanked me.
I asked for what?
He stated that he could see the reflective stripes for Miles and that he felt that it was one reason he was able to keep running fast .He also said he wished that ALL riders were required to wear a quality reflective vest
 

Honda48X

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Probably better to keep with a red or other color rear strobe as it would not be as bad on the overtaking driver's vision and night vision... If you think its bad having a TT behind a bike trying to overtake, I would think it would be a lot worse if he is blinded temporarily by lights!!!
That's true. The last thing we want them thinking is they have a wrong way vehicle and veer off track and hit something.
 
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