V2R Quad/Vehicle Incident

JBSTEVENS44

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Respect to all.....

One day - Bikes, Quads....4 hour gap....class 10 and slower including UTV. Plenty of entry fees to cover the day of racing.

Day 2 - TT, 1, 6100, 7200

To the guy that said twice for car racers to get out of the GPS you have no clue what you are taking about, it has NOTHING to do with GPS.


Sounds great! Hopefully they will at least look into something like this.
 

dan200

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Every time we have a thread about slower/lighter vehicles being endangered by bigger heavier ones I always float the idea of all vehicles being required to have forward facing lights (ambers). If you hit a checkpoint and they don't work you get parked till they do. Its a simple enough thing to work into the rules. It doesn't require extra staff, insurance, permits etc. My idea always gets glossed over.

Will this solve the problem we are discussing? No, but it will certainly give whoever is having someone run up on them a better chance of getting out of the way if they can better see the guy behind them because they have lights.

Forward facing daytime lights are also helpful for the guys in the pits to identify their car/truck from a greater distance.

The incident with this quad was that the rider thought he was in the clear to pull back onto a dusty course and I am going to assume he looked back before he did it and saw just dust. Maybe, just maybe, if the approaching vehicle had some lights up front that rider coulda seen those and waited a bit longer.

Obviously we can avoid the bikes getting mixed with the other vehicles by running them on a different day and I like that plan. Working out those logistics is not something I would know how to do though but I hope they can get a giant way to separate the handlebars and the guys with cages. It's needed.

In the mean time, Is there any sound reason for always on forward facing lights not to be mandatory? @Andy Mac @PAB your wisdom would be greatly appreciated here.
 

dan200

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90% of the time we are running forward facing lights. I agree 100% that it helps people see the vehicles coming.
From the side of the course it seems like you're in the minority on that. I wish more guys did it.
 

Zambo

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I bet if the incident had happened at night, the rider would not have pulled back out onto the course in front of the second truck.
 

rustyb

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Every time we have a thread about slower/lighter vehicles being endangered by bigger heavier ones I always float the idea of all vehicles being required to have forward facing lights (ambers). If you hit a checkpoint and they don't work you get parked till they do. Its a simple enough thing to work into the rules. It doesn't require extra staff, insurance, permits etc. My idea always gets glossed over.

Will this solve the problem we are discussing? No, but it will certainly give whoever is having someone run up on them a better chance of getting out of the way if they can better see the guy behind them because they have lights.

As someone who was out there on a quad looking back for vehicles you are right, the lights make it much easier to see them. Of course, this only works if a rider is actually looking back.....
 

Mojave Traveler

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Dave Ashley comments on the importance of being able to finish a race, and co-driver Dan Smith passes a bike rider at the 1999 Silver State 300..It would be great to know the opinions of veteran drivers like Ashley with vast experience on bikes and in trucks in regards to this matter.

 

El Mamito USMC

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@PAB or any competent TT driver, the TT cant see that is a quad/bike and not a caged vehicle in front of them making the dust.? I never rode a TT on a race, just cruise, so I don't know the view from the cockpit
 

GageFamilyRacing

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first choice would be a 2 day race. I couldn't afford higher entry fees so on to plan B

I have spent most of my time racing on two wheels but not at BITD/SCORE I did it at D37 and National Hare and Hounds so I didn't have to worry about trucks and buggy's. At race speed its unsafe for a rider to look down at a tracker or to look behind them to see if someones coming.

Thinking outside the box I would like to see a gps unit that would give a verbal warning into the helmet when a vehicle is getting close. Kinda like range rings for gps. If a vehicle gets within say 100 yards it will start a warning signal into my helmet. Then the rider can immediately get out of the way. Next the rider would look down at his gps and it would show all vehicles on course so he would if he had 1,2,3 vehicles coming and know if it was safe to re-enter the course. It would look like what racing trax is doing. Bikes/quads would be one color and vehicles would be another. This would work the same for everyone. No more excuses like I didn't see you behind me. Hopefully get rid of some of the nerfing also. I know I would feel better knowing I could look at my gps when its safe to see how big of a gap I had until the truck caught me.

Bike/quads should have a better rear facing flashing light and vehicles should have forward facing lights.
 

PAB

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@PAB or any competent TT driver, the TT cant see that is a quad/bike and not a caged vehicle in front of them making the dust.? I never rode a TT on a race, just cruise, so I don't know the view from the cockpit

No you can't see usually what is making dust, especially if it's in other dust. We try really hard to look way ahead and see if there are bikes or quads on the course and we have our pits also tell us so we know if a quad or bike are mixed in with the trucks ahead of us.

Even when you stay back just out of the dust you come into sections where you are suddenly in a big cloud even though you are staying just behind the dust of the vehicle ahead of you.

Bike guys pulling just to the edge to let trucks by is a bad practice. They need to get off the course and we give them the time. We even stop next to them sometimes to wave them further off or make sure there is no dust behind us.
 

Bro_Gill

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Quad dust is just as bad as car dust. And who says any racer is paying to race in daylight? We pay to race, daylight or night time. I guess maybe the TT racers want to split the 1000 into a 2 day race so they don't have to have lights?
 

retroblazer

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I believe the promoters do the best they can, if the Individual wants to accept the risk, and Pay for the right to do so then its on the Individual to accept the ultimate price they may pay.

This should be the the way it is, but it's changing as we head to a nanny state.
If you don't like a situation at a race, you have two choices, accept what is given or withdraw. Most promoters are happy to hear from their racers about critical issues. There are many time and personal constraints that a promoter must deal with and still make money.



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J Prich

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This should be the the way it is, but it's changing as we head to a nanny state.
If you don't like a situation at a race, you have two choices, accept what is given or withdraw. Most promoters are happy to hear from their racers about critical issues. There are many time and personal constraints that a promoter must deal with and still make money.



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I get your point, but we're talking about safety. If a guy says he wants to race without a helmet, his choice right? Don't need no stinkin' rules to tell us what we can or can't do...

Your post kind of makes it sound like discussing ways to make racing safer is some kind of sissification of the sport. I don't think that was your intent, but that's kind of what is implied.
 

Dlock5

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This might be a dumb question, but why can't they run 2 separate courses. 1 for quads and bikes 1 for everyone else. What if they veered the handlebars off the main course about a 1/4 or 1/2 a mile at race mile 200 or 250. Then have then merge back in towards the end of the race. Seems like they would be off the course before the TT caught them and come back in after most of the TT finished.

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retroblazer

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I get your point, but we're talking about safety. If a guy says he wants to race without a helmet, his choice right? Don't need no stinkin' rules to tell us what we can or can't do...

Your post kind of makes it sound like discussing ways to make racing safer is some kind of sissification of the sport. I don't think that was your intent, but that's kind of what is implied.

Your helmet comment isn't too far from my thinking.

We already allow guys to race without seat belts !! Yes those lucky bike racers.

The topic had already had been well covered when I made the comment that "we" as racers, have the choice.





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Dirty Harry

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This might be a dumb question, but why can't they run 2 separate courses. 1 for quads and bikes 1 for everyone else. What if they veered the handlebars off the main course about a 1/4 or 1/2 a mile at race mile 200 or 250. Then have then merge back in towards the end of the race. Seems like they would be off the course before the TT caught them and come back in after most of the TT finished.

Its not a dumb question but it also isn't really practical for BITD to mark two courses, assuming that the BLM would even let me do so.
 

Steve_Sourapas

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Respect to all.....

One day - Bikes, Quads....4 hour gap....class 10 and slower including UTV. Plenty of entry fees to cover the day of racing.

Day 2 - TT, 1, 6100, 7200

To the guy that said twice for car racers to get out of the GPS you have no clue what you are taking about, it has NOTHING to do with GPS.
Would be fun to race without GPS if you get to prerun and see who has the skills. Let's go old school and find out. Not going to happen but fun discussion.
 

D Bergstrom

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Sorry, this one is kind of long.

Starting bikes/quads behind four wheel vehicles is suicide for the bikes/quads. Yes, many of the faster teams will never be caught, but remember, there are other classes beside Trophy Trucks and unlimited cars, the bikes and quads will catch many of them. Also remember, the time limit for this race is 22 hours, even if you go with a 5 hour gap, we will catch some of them.

The bike has no way to let a vehicle know we are behind them. We can’t honk, we can’t nerf, and the vehicle is kicking up so much dust they probably won’t see us in their mirrors. (Plus people on here complain all the time co-drivers don’t seem to watch their mirrors anyway.) So I find a place I can pass which will also take time on a one lane road, a bike or quad doesn’t have 35” to 39” tall tires, so we just can’t bomb out through the surrounding area to get around. I make my move to go around, but since the vehicle doesn’t know I am there, he decides to change his line. Yeah, I am sure you can imagine how that will end.

Second issue, while I am trying to pass vehicle number 1, vehicle number 2 comes up from behind us trying to get around. With all the dust, he probably won’t see the bike or quad. Same as the situation above, it’s not going to end well for the bike or quad.

My only experience trying to pass four wheel vehicles on my quad is passing UTV’s years ago when the Parker 250 was one race. It’s not fun at all, and that was just UTV’s. You ever tell me I have to start behind all the four wheel classes, I quit, no way am I going to do that.

As far as the condition of the course after all the four wheel vehicles, yes, it will be a lot rougher. Sure, it is desert racing; it is supposed to be rough, but rough and high speeds lead to crashes for the handlebar guys. Start us after the four wheel vehicles, and I guarantee the number of injuries and helicopter flights will go up.

I see a lot of “well, you had a three hour head start, how can you get caught?” in this post. You guys understand, like four wheel classes, bike/quad classes are different speeds also, right? So let’s look at this some more for quads. (Since that is what I race and know.) The fastest bike averaged just over 61 mph, and the first Trophy Truck was right around 60 mph. The first overall pro quad, which also finished 7th overall out of all the bikes and quads, averaged just under 52 mph. (I believe they had a good clean run and I know both the riders, they are fast.) Now let’s look at the first place quad sportsman expert team. One of the riders from that team posted on here that they had a trouble free run, and finished just 15 minutes before the first Trophy Truck. Their average speed was just under 47 mph. (22nd overall out of what looks to be 57 finishers.) So essentially, you have to average 45 mph or so not to get caught by four wheel vehicles, not easy to do for amateur and expert racers. Yes, BITD has classes for amateurs and experts, so they are out there, because they are allowed to be out there. Remove the sportsman racers, and you might as well remove all bikes and quads, because there really aren’t that many pro riders.

I am not a fan at all of pulling bikes/quads off the course based on my last paragraph. If we have 22 hours to finish, then give us our 22 hours to finish. If you want to pull me off the course for an hour or two and then let me continue with a time credit once some of the faster vehicles go by, fine, but let me finish. Sure I didn’t win, but I may be going for points, so that finish is important. Now, if you are being caught by mile 50, you might want to reconsider continuing…

As far as what to do to help this, I really have no idea. I think that is why this keeps coming every year or two; there really isn’t a good solution. Keep working on the warning device; hopefully technology will continue to evolve. My only other real suggestion is to increase the start gap. (Do NOT let four wheel vehicles start before bikes and quads, remember, suicide!)While multi day events sounds like a good idea, not sure it can happen for Vegas to Reno. Not only do you have to deal with the BLM for one day, now it is two, plus any highway crossing is now a two day deal. I believe it is hard enough to find volunteers for one day, two days, I am sure it will be even tougher. Not sure two day events will happen. My other suggestion since most bikes/quads race in the sportsman class, maybe make it so a first time sportsman racer in BITD cannot race Vegas to Reno as their first race. Make it a requirement that you have to race the Parker 250 first. Parker is a great first race. Just have to deal with bikes and quads, and maybe have to deal with some UTV’s, but nothing like Vegas to Reno. Maybe that will open their eyes to what they are in for, as it is only 250 miles, or 150 miles if they ironman it, compared to 550. Will at least give them an idea of what they can expect.

Again, sorry for the long post, but I felt some of this stuff needed to be said. I didn’t race this year, but did race last year, but I DNF’ed on day one due to losing the motor, so no having to deal with being passed. 2006 and 2008 were the only races I did that I did have to deal with getting passed. I had my head on a swivel, always looking behind me. By the time we were caught, I don’t remember it being that bad, as the cars were pretty spread out by then. Once it was dark, it was easy, just had to wait for the lights. That might be another good reason to start the four wheel vehicles later, by the time they do start catching bikes/quads, it will be dark. I just hope something can be done, because Vegas to Reno really is a fun race, and I would like to race it again someday on a quad.

Doug
 

johnboy

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No longer racing but, in the past I do recall Casey having two separate loop courses to separate the 2 wheel and 4 wheel vehicles south of Henderson on the lake bed. So it is possible. I still cant figure out the mentality of non professional racers on bikes feeling the need to race on the same course with 4 wheeled vehicles when there are motorcycle races everywhere, desert, Glen Helen, or even Gorman, that are team races or individual effort available to them. Also keeping it to pro riders, much fewer bikes would be in a position of getting caught, and if you are on a pro team, once your caught you are not on the podium and should not mind being pulled off the track for safety reasons.
Lastly, I have prerun and ran this course back when they did that and in my opinion, its not that great of a motorcycle race course. Seen more than one bike that was stuck in silt that was ran over by race cars and mangled. Luckily the riders were off the course out of the way. Reminds me a little of thinking its a good idea to run with the bulls?????? PS...I am a dirtbike owner and rider.
 
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