V2R Quad/Vehicle Incident

Dlock5

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Why not start the quads/mc after the big classes have started? Its not like an atv is going to catch up to any TT on a good day
Apparently they tear up the course to much, making it unsafe to follow on a quad and or bike

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Bro_Gill

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D Bergstrom- In my scenario, you still get 22 hours to finish, you just have a bigger gap between the last bike and the first car. 5-6 hours would have prevented the first TT from catching the first sportsman quad by a couple hours. If the minimum speed for a bike to finish within the time limit is 22 hours in a 550 mile race, that is 25mph. If you fall below that average, you should pull off the course. If you can't make that average to begin with, you shouldn't have entered. I don't think you can disagree with that. Reality is almost anyone with minor skills should be able to run 25-30mph average on a car course when on a bike. Maybe not 45-60 for an average, but you aren't talking about those guys, you are talking about the sportsman racer who isn't a pro and isn't running pro speeds. Or they are a sand bagger! I think expecting an average speed between 25 and 30mph for the slowest bike classes is reasonable. It is for the car guys in a class 11 or stock build truck and bikes are mush easier to run faster than those. FWIW I have raced both 3 wheelers (when they were legal) and Class 11 over the years.
 

JDDurfey

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Why not start the quads/mc after the big classes have started? Its not like an atv is going to catch up to any TT on a good day


Okay, lets think about this. Say the TT, Class 1 and 6100 start the race. Give them an hour or so head start and start bikes and quads, then wait a couple more hours and start Class 10 and the rest in their respective order.

What happens when a TT, 1, or 6100 has a couple of flats and a bike catches them are they out of the race like some people are suggesting happens to the bikes? What if the TT,1, or 6100 loses a gear or steering and is running at 40 mph? They will be impossible for the bike or quad to pass and then there goes the race for the bike rider that has to follow in their massive dust for who knows how long.

I've been the bike guy that finished before the TTs in many races, and I've also been the guy that got caught due to some mechanical or other issues. I've also been in a Class 1 when we caught bikes. It sucked when we had to slow down for the bikes, but at the same time I understood that they were in a race as well and we slowed down and made sure they knew we were there before we attempted to pass. Should some of these guys pulled off and called it a day? Maybe, but I didn't know their story, they may have taken a spill and had to fix their bike, but have a fresh rider at the next pit and then they will be hauling butt again. So if they should stop racing because they got caught then the rule should apply to all classes that get caught by a "slower" class. Every TT that gets caught by a 1 is out, every 1 that is caught by a 10 is out...and anyone caught by an 11 is DONE. :)

There is no easy solution to this problem. I think the easiest is to increase the gap between the two. The electronic technology is a great idea, but when it fails while everyone is betting their life on it working will have deadly results, as we have seen when trucks are driving in the dust by using the GPS. I know it is done, everyone does it, I have too, and if you don't you are never going to pass the truck in front of you.

Another thing that needs to happen is more education for the bike riders. MANDATORY safety meetings with all riders. I work in a dangerous profession. We have safety meeting after safety meeting with rules and regulations 10 miles long and people still get hurt.
 

Bro_Gill

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I see people putting fuel in cars in shorts and flip flops every day of the week...At public gas stations. And sometimes they even catch on fire. I get the whole safety deal and improvements are always a good thing, but there will never and I mean NEVER be accident free ANYTHING ON THIS PLANET as long as humans are involved. You want to watch robots race, go for it. You want to prevent pit fires? Eliminate pressurized fueling. Indy did it decades ago when it first showed up.
 

Bro_Gill

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JD- how many of the bikes you caught in the Class 1 were actually really in the hunt for a win/place? How many were just in finish mode? Huge difference and really no different than say, a Trophy Truck that is down hours and not in the hunt smashing the back of a limited buggy that is leading its class and takes them out of the race. I venture to say had you run over a bike in the 1 car, your race for a win would be over. That is what we are talking about. A life is not worth a win, but the other side is, who is ANYONE out there on the race course not in the hunt and not racing to a win having a right to ruin someone else's chance that is in the hunt? Whether you are on a slow moving bike or a crawling to a finish truck, doesn't matter if you screw up someone who is racing for a win in a slower class, let alone a faster one. Just increase the gap.
 

D Bergstrom

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D Bergstrom- In my scenario, you still get 22 hours to finish, you just have a bigger gap between the last bike and the first car. 5-6 hours would have prevented the first TT from catching the first sportsman quad by a couple hours. If the minimum speed for a bike to finish within the time limit is 22 hours in a 550 mile race, that is 25mph. If you fall below that average, you should pull off the course. If you can't make that average to begin with, you shouldn't have entered. I don't think you can disagree with that. Reality is almost anyone with minor skills should be able to run 25-30mph average on a car course when on a bike. Maybe not 45-60 for an average, but you aren't talking about those guys, you are talking about the sportsman racer who isn't a pro and isn't running pro speeds. Or they are a sand bagger! I think expecting an average speed between 25 and 30mph for the slowest bike classes is reasonable. It is for the car guys in a class 11 or stock build truck and bikes are mush easier to run faster than those. FWIW I have raced both 3 wheelers (when they were legal) and Class 11 over the years.

The minimum speed is already in place, BITD has separate pit closing times for both bikes/quads and car/trucks listed for every pit. (Someone in this post or the other actually posted the sheet that BITD sends out when you sign up.) It basically gives an average speed of anywhere from 15 mph to 30 mph depending on the section. Overall, it ends up being a 25 mph average for the entire race. As far as I know, BITD has always enforced these, in fact, either this post or the other the person who was in charge of pit 1 said it was enforced. I agree with you, if you don't make that closing time, your race is done.

i think a 5 or 6 hour start gap would be ideal, would allow a lot more bikes and quads to finish ahead, and by the time they are really starting to get caught, it will be night, so much easier then due to being able to see lights coming up behind you.

Doug
 

D Bergstrom

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Why not start the quads/mc after the big classes have started? Its not like an atv is going to catch up to any TT on a good day

I will post my reasons why I would not be in favor of it again.

Starting bikes/quads behind four wheel vehicles is suicide for the bikes/quads. Yes, many of the faster teams will never be caught, but remember, there are other classes beside Trophy Trucks and unlimited cars, the bikes and quads will catch many of them. Also remember, the time limit for this race is 22 hours, even if you go with a 5 hour gap, we will catch some of them.

The bike has no way to let a vehicle know we are behind them. We can’t honk, we can’t nerf, and the vehicle is kicking up so much dust they probably won’t see us in their mirrors. (Plus people on here complain all the time co-drivers don’t seem to watch their mirrors anyway.) So I find a place I can pass which will also take time on a one lane road, a bike or quad doesn’t have 35” to 39” tall tires, so we just can’t bomb out through the surrounding area to get around. I make my move to go around, but since the vehicle doesn’t know I am there, he decides to change his line. Yeah, I am sure you can imagine how that will end.

Second issue, while I am trying to pass vehicle number 1, vehicle number 2 comes up from behind us trying to get around. With all the dust, he probably won’t see the bike or quad. Same as the situation above, it’s not going to end well for the bike or quad.

My only experience trying to pass four wheel vehicles on my quad is passing UTV’s years ago when the Parker 250 was one race. It’s not fun at all, and that was just UTV’s. You ever tell me I have to start behind all the four wheel classes, I quit, no way am I going to do that.

As far as the condition of the course after all the four wheel vehicles, yes, it will be a lot rougher. Sure, it is desert racing; it is supposed to be rough, but rough and high speeds lead to crashes for the handlebar guys. Start us after the four wheel vehicles, and I guarantee the number of injuries and helicopter flights will go up.
 
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Dlock5

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Seems like all you guy's who've done these type of races, are in agreement on a wider start gap. Is there any reason that they wouldn't take you guy's advice?. Would it cost more money for permits or something?. From the outside looking in, it seems like a no brainer.

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DanMcMillin

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A wider start gap isn't going to make a difference if riders are being caught by Pit 3, or mile 300 of a Baja 1000. Riders are only getting more and more tired as the day, or their section, goes on. Trophy Trucks are going SO FAST now, I don't think many people here can comprehend that unless you've driven or ridden one in recent years. Move the sportsman riders to the back with the rest of the sportsman classes. My other solution is simply having their own race day. Race in Peace to Chris Carlisle.
 

FirePig

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How about a hybrid of separate courses? Drawing on what NORRA does. Same course for say the first 250 miles. Then separate bike/quad and 4 wheel course but merging at the pits and then out on separate courses to the finish? (I do see several problems with this but thought I'd throw it out anyway.)
 
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If an alternate were to be found permissible, how do you propose to pay for the additional costs for permits, personnel and etc.?
 

ndvalium

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How about a hybrid of separate courses? Drawing on what NORRA does. Same course for say the first 250 miles. Then separate bike/quad and 4 wheel course but merging at the pits and then out on separate courses to the finish? (I do see several problems with this but thought I'd throw it out anyway.)

Two very big challenges on this course with that concept.

1) - over 500 volunteers are used for this race within BITD. Having a different course spreads those volunteers even thinner for all the little ranch roads that require course monitors. In addition there are only limited access routes into pit areas throughout the route.

2) - land routes are a challenge in certain areas, there is only one route that is active for getting from point to point. BITD has been looking for some alternative courses but basically from Rawhide to finish, there is really only one route approved for competitive racing.

Keep throwing out the ideas though please.
 

FirePig

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David, yep I know there are big challenges but as some have advocated completely separate courses I'm just throwing out an alternative.

Now, just thinking out loud here, it seems one of the points of greatest danger is when the fast TT's first come up on the slower handlebars. Add in that the top TT are closer together and, in the instance of the quad this year, have increased chances of being in each others dust which obscures the handlebars.

When I was sitting at pit 14 the gap between most of the TT was several minutes so towards the later stages things are for the most part pretty spread out. It seems to me the place for the greatest risk is in the second third of the course. (Again I could be completely off-base.) If the middle section has an alternative route could that at least be an area for separate bike/quad and 4 wheel route?
 
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If an alternate were to be found permissible, how do you propose to pay for the additional costs for permits, personnel and etc.?
 

Honda48X

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Start the bikes an hour early and have their checkered flag at the 300 mile point or close to that. Advertise the race at that distance.

Bikes would have a shorter distance..
 

cynicwanderer

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David, yep I know there are big challenges but as some have advocated completely separate courses I'm just throwing out an alternative.

Now, just thinking out loud here, it seems one of the points of greatest danger is when the fast TT's first come up on the slower handlebars. Add in that the top TT are closer together and, in the instance of the quad this year, have increased chances of being in each others dust which obscures the handlebars.

When I was sitting at pit 14 the gap between most of the TT was several minutes so towards the later stages things are for the most part pretty spread out. It seems to me the place for the greatest risk is in the second third of the course. (Again I could be completely off-base.) If the middle section has an alternative route could that at least be an area for separate bike/quad and 4 wheel route?

form what I saw (being one of the handlebars) I don't think the top TT trucks are as much the problem as the some of middle of the pack trucks. on the course (aprox. halfway) the trucks in the middle seem to be bunched up more in clusters and some definitely didn't seem as professional or experienced as the top trucks; i.e. were pretty sloppy and didn't wait for a safe pass. towards the end of the class, the trucks were pretty spread out and didn't seem like they were racing to win, as much as just trying to stay in the race and finish. anyway, that was just my experience.
 

ScottWisdom

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Start the bikes an hour early and have their checkered flag at the 300 mile point or close to that. Advertise the race at that distance.

Bikes would have a shorter distance..


As PAB and others suggested, a 2 day event is safest. Other than that, I'd add to Honda48x's idea and suggest the bikes/quads have a separate start line further down the course. Unfortunately, this would mean shorter mileage for them but it would increase the time gap and all competitors would still enjoy the same finish line festivities.
 
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