V2R Quad/Vehicle Incident

Dlock5

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I've never race the v2r, so I could be way off. But from reading these threads, it seems that the weekend warriors were being caught by race mile 180 in some cases. Well at that point they have to follow the TT on a beat up course for 350 miles or so. If that's the case, what's the big deal about starting in back of the TT, most of your race is following them anyway. Maybe give them a extra hour to finish since the course will be beat up so bad

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cynicwanderer

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I've never race the v2r, so I could be way off. But from reading these threads, it seems that the weekend warriors were being caught by race mile 180 in some cases. Well at that point they have to follow the TT on a beat up course for 350 miles or so. If that's the case, what's the big deal about starting in back of the TT, most of your race is following them anyway. Maybe give them a extra hour to finish since the course will be beat up so bad

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yes, that's why I think they should have a sportsman bike/quad class that rides after the trucks. this would be for first timers who want to get an idea of whether this is for them, and/or people who don't want to deal with getting caught by the trucks. based on how well they did, they can decide if they want to try the regular amateur class in front of the trucks the next year.
 

Honda48X

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As PAB and others suggested, a 2 day event is safest. Other than that, I'd add to Honda48x's idea and suggest the bikes/quads have a separate start line further down the course. Unfortunately, this would mean shorter mileage for them but it would increase the time gap and all competitors would still enjoy the same finish line festivities.
I agree in this particular race start them at the same time they did this year but 200 miles down course. That still gives them a 350 mile race and that start alone gives them at least a 3 hour cushion just by starting them 200 miles down the course plus the time between when they start and the Trophy Trucks start.
 

isdtbower

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Is there a way to set a minimum time at pit checks for the handlebars. If they don't make that minimum time, they would have to take a "time out" for a "few hours" to let the fast trucks and buggies race thru. Then they would resume on the new hour..

Some international races are like that so a rider can attend to another's emergency or bottleneck and pickup a new minute at the next check without penalty. Rarely used, but it is there for a jury to decide.

The "time out" could also accumulate a short penalty to not make it "useful." for points. It would be up to the riders discretion to continue on in the mix. And that rule would not affect the fast riders.

Everyone gets to... race the course and get a finish.
 
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isdtbower

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Is there a way to set a minimum time at pit checks for the handlebars. If they don't make that minimum time, they would have to take a "time out" for a "few hours" to let the fast trucks and buggies race thru. Then they would resume on the new hour..

Some international races are like that so a rider can attend to another's emergency or bottleneck and pickup a new minute at the next check without penalty. Rarely used, but it is there for a jury to decide.

The "time out" could also accumulate a short penalty to not make it "useful." for points. It would be up to the riders discretion to continue on in the mix after the mandatory "time out.". That rule would not affect the fast riders. Joing the mix early on would be more cars and a prudent decision to call it. . Later, not such a big deal as attrition has helped separate racers.

Everyone gets to race the course and get a finish.

Fixed to mandatory "time out."
 

isdtbower

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That set of handlebars could have been pulled from the course at the last check. The check would close to handlebars an "hour" before the first fast "truck" is due to clear the course to the next check. They are already several hours off the pace. Culling handlebars would be easy for a checkpoint. They would be stopped, and given a time slip to return to re-enter the race with a new finishing time. Finishing: Maybe the same as caged.

With tracking so good now, handlebar pits would be aware of stopping, and the rider would have time to find someone to communicate ahead.

When handlebars start re-entering the race, a sign of that fact could be displayed at the check so the following drivers would be aware.

It seems like this keeps the race within the same time frame.

I suppose this does put the slower cage classes at a disadvantage as the handlebars are not further down the course....... One thing about the time out is that it does give the rider time to "think about it."
 

cynicwanderer

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One of these threads said somewhere between 180 to 200 miles

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reviewing my notes, I was at pit#5 (183) when the first truck was 20mins out (I think that was around noon). I waited for about 1hr there to let the top trucks get by. I don't think I was the last bike, since I passed several bikes/quads between pit#3 and #5. my start was around 6:30, and there were some bikes that started after me. I don't know when the trucks started, I thought it was 9:15, which means it's actually less than 3hrs. this was my first V2R, and I did have some problems early on, so my average was much slower than at parker 250. I calculated that I needed about 45mph avg. to match the truck at the finish, if all went well and I had a 3 hr lead. I had about 33mph avg by pit#5, I did about 42mph avg at parker 250. my average went way down between pit#5-7, because I ended up stopping a lot to let trucks pass. I stopped at pit#7, I didn't see any bikes and one quad passed me between #5 and #7.
 
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Chris Tobin

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Two very big challenges on this course with that concept.

1) - over 500 volunteers are used for this race within BITD. Having a different course spreads those volunteers even thinner for all the little ranch roads that require course monitors. In addition there are only limited access routes into pit areas throughout the route.

2) - land routes are a challenge in certain areas, there is only one route that is active for getting from point to point. BITD has been looking for some alternative courses but basically from Rawhide to finish, there is really only one route approved for competitive racing.

Keep throwing out the ideas though please.

What about running Reno to Vegas then??? There could be alternative lines into the finish for handlebars and cages...

And also start the handlebars and hour earlier and trucks an hour later to increase the gap between them...
 

Bro_Gill

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One of my buddies asked this question before the race- Why not race Reno to Vegas? Everyone always wants to be closer to home at the end of the race rather than the beginning. Reno would probably see a better bump with prerace activity than post race. No different than the folks who would like to see a peninsula run start at the bottom and return to the top.
 

Dlock5

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reviewing my notes, I was at pit#5 (183) when the first truck was 20mins out (I think that was around noon). I waited for about 1hr there to let the top trucks get by. I don't think I was the last bike, since I passed several bikes/quads between pit#3 and #5. my start was around 6:30, and there were some bikes that started after me. I don't know when the trucks started, I thought it was 9:15, which means it's actually less than 3hrs. this was my first V2R, and I did have some problems early on, so my average was much slower than at parker 250. I calculated that I needed about 45mph avg. to match the truck at the finish, if all went well and I had a 3 hr lead. I had about 33mph avg by pit#5, I did about 42mph avg at parker 250. my average went way down between pit#5-7, because I ended up stopping a lot to let trucks pass. I stopped at pit#7, I didn't see any bikes and one quad passed me between #5 and #7.
Would you have minded starting behind the TT?.

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bobylax

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With V2R being one of a few races that mix handlebars with trucks and cars, I think that education is a really good place to start. Have a mandatory riders meeting for ALL amateur riders, and anyone who has never raced V2R, regardless of experience. Have checkpoints display cards that indicate "FASTER VEHICLES APPROACHING" when the lead car or truck is 20 minutes out from that check. At riders meeting, make every rider aware of what they should do if caught. When you see the "Faster Vehicle" sign, keep your head on a swivel. If possible and safe, indicate to approaching vehicle with a hand wave you know they are there and looking for a place to pull off. If possible, try and get at least 50 feet from the course, shut off your motor so you can hear, and wait for the dust to clear so you can see any following vehicles, then precede back on course, knowing that was the 1st of many coming your way.

Because my checkpoints for V2R have always been within the 1st 50 miles of the race, I don't get to see how some of the back marker bikes and quads interact with the go-fasters, but I can tell from mile 35 who will get caught by mid race. A lot of the IM guys are pacing themselves, especially the amateurs, they have a very long day ahead of them. And I get it, "back in the day" when I raced, it wasn't about winning, or even a top 25, it was about finishing. The longer and more challenging the course the more satisfying it was to see that "Finish" banner. The finish pin was a badge of honor. The only race I timed out on was Barstow to Vegas because the guys that were pitting for me got lost and showed up an hour late to pit 4. I was totally bummed! So I get it. I think we firstly need to get the point across that there are things that riders can do, have to do, to make an inherently dangerous event as safe as possible.

There are some great ideas on here that would make things safer for every one, but logistically difficult to pull off with permitting and personnel. Asking the handlebar guys to race the T2R (Tonopah to Reno) makes this just another desert race, not the same prestige. I remember how loud the Class 10 guys screamed a few years back when the Mint was broken into 2 races and they were slated to run in the 1st, shorter race. Nobody wanted to race the Mint 240! Widening the gap between start of bikes and cars will help, but the back markers will still get caught, and if you make the gap too large, the bikes will have to start in the dark, and the TT's and everyone else would have to finish in the dark, and there goes any air support. This will be a tough nut to crack until the pass alert system is refined and proven, and even though some of the suggestions I brought up are just common sense, maybe education is a good place to start.
 

cynicwanderer

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What about running Reno to Vegas then??? There could be alternative lines into the finish for handlebars and cages...

And also start the handlebars and hour earlier and trucks an hour later to increase the gap between them...

adding 2hrs would allow the bikes to go a little less than 40mph to beat the truck at the finish. probably see more bikes finishing, rather than DNF'ing when the trucks catch up.
 
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Those two hours add up to over a thousand hours for checkpoint, medical, scoring and other crews, added to a day that runs long anyways.

Do a little research into how badly cognitive functions deteriorate over a long day.

Will we just be moving the injuries and fatalities onto Nevada's highways through unintended consequence?

I personally know this has become an issue in Search and Rescue operations as well as video/film production.
 

cynicwanderer

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Would you have minded starting behind the TT?.

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thanks for asking. that is a good point. my experience is mostly enduro/hare scramble in northern california. I have been racing in BITD for the last couple of years and also done some MRANN enduros and hare scrambles in the desert (near Toulon). The courses, are much more technical than a typical BITD desert race and the averages slower, the longest was about 110miles. of course, we don't race with trucks, only quads on some of the events.

I raced the last Henderson 250 (before the trucks) and then went back the next week for practice. sure enough, the trucks really tear up the course. however, the damage to the course from the first 20 or so trucks was less at V2R, probably because at Henderson the trucks actually did several loops and so did the UTVs.. one thing I have noted that before the trucks come, following the quad ruts in the sand was a pain, because they meander all over the place. granted I'm not as experienced with desert/sand as many of the people who raced, riding in the ruts at speed isn't that big of deal for me, but when they suddenly change it gets a little sketchy. I actually liked the ruts the trucks left, because even though they were deep, they were usually straight. getting safely out of the ruts over the berms to make room to pass, was challenging for me and something I need to practice over the next year. especially, when the truck is right behind you and the pressure is on.

while riding a pristine course would be nice (and how the pro bikes can be as fast as the trucks), by the time the pro/expert bikes/quads have gone through it's already getting torn up. I would be OK with starting after the trucks, realizing that it would be harder and more demanding, but it would be easier to focus on the course/race and feel safer, rather then constantly looking over my shoulder for the next truck. I'm not sure how the average on the course would compare between riding after the trucks and stopping/waiting for the trucks to pass. probably a wash.
 

cynicwanderer

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With V2R being one of a few races that mix handlebars with trucks and cars, I think that education is a really good place to start. Have a mandatory riders meeting for ALL amateur riders, and anyone who has never raced V2R, regardless of experience. Have checkpoints display cards that indicate "FASTER VEHICLES APPROACHING" when the lead car or truck is 20 minutes out from that check. At riders meeting, make every rider aware of what they should do if caught. When you see the "Faster Vehicle" sign, keep your head on a swivel. If possible and safe, indicate to approaching vehicle with a hand wave you know they are there and looking for a place to pull off. If possible, try and get at least 50 feet from the course, shut off your motor so you can hear, and wait for the dust to clear so you can see any following vehicles, then precede back on course, knowing that was the 1st of many coming your way.

Because my checkpoints for V2R have always been within the 1st 50 miles of the race, I don't get to see how some of the back marker bikes and quads interact with the go-fasters, but I can tell from mile 35 who will get caught by mid race. A lot of the IM guys are pacing themselves, especially the amateurs, they have a very long day ahead of them. And I get it, "back in the day" when I raced, it wasn't about winning, or even a top 25, it was about finishing. The longer and more challenging the course the more satisfying it was to see that "Finish" banner. The finish pin was a badge of honor. The only race I timed out on was Barstow to Vegas because the guys that were pitting for me got lost and showed up an hour late to pit 4. I was totally bummed! So I get it. I think we firstly need to get the point across that there are things that riders can do, have to do, to make an inherently dangerous event as safe as possible.

There are some great ideas on here that would make things safer for every one, but logistically difficult to pull off with permitting and personnel. Asking the handlebar guys to race the T2R (Tonopah to Reno) makes this just another desert race, not the same prestige. I remember how loud the Class 10 guys screamed a few years back when the Mint was broken into 2 races and they were slated to run in the 1st, shorter race. Nobody wanted to race the Mint 240! Widening the gap between start of bikes and cars will help, but the back markers will still get caught, and if you make the gap too large, the bikes will have to start in the dark, and the TT's and everyone else would have to finish in the dark, and there goes any air support. This will be a tough nut to crack until the pass alert system is refined and proven, and even though some of the suggestions I brought up are just common sense, maybe education is a good place to start.

yes, it is certainly about finishing as IM for me. V2R is the logical stepping stone for solo bike racing after doing enduros and loop races. I think shortening it to 300miles would be disapointing. knowing that it is really a 500+mile race. I know it felt disapointing to me that the Parker 250 is really only a Parker 160 for the IM. I'm self supported and have to take time off from work (who's idea is it to run the V2R on a friday anyway ?) and drive 8-10hrs before the race and after the race (well not the V2R, but the other races). at some point it's not as rewaring when the races are too short. I.e. I would not drive that far for a enduro, unless it was a national.
 

bobylax

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thanks for asking. that is a good point. my experience is mostly enduro/hare scramble in northern california. I have been racing in BITD for the last couple of years and also done some MRANN enduros and hare scrambles in the desert (near Toulon). The courses, are much more technical than a typical BITD desert race and the averages slower, the longest was about 110miles. of course, we don't race with trucks, only quads on some of the events.

I raced the last Henderson 250 (before the trucks) and then went back the next week for practice. sure enough, the trucks really tear up the course. however, the damage to the course from the first 20 or so trucks was less at V2R, probably because at Henderson the trucks actually did several loops and so did the UTVs.. one thing I have noted that before the trucks come, following the quad ruts in the sand was a pain, because they meander all over the place. granted I'm not as experienced with desert/sand as many of the people who raced, riding in the ruts at speed isn't that big of deal for me, but when they suddenly change it gets a little sketchy. I actually liked the ruts the trucks left, because even though they were deep, they were usually straight. getting safely out of the ruts over the berms to make room to pass, was challenging for me and something I need to practice over the next year. especially, when the truck is right behind you and the pressure is on.

while riding a pristine course would be nice (and how the pro bikes can be as fast as the trucks), by the time the pro/expert bikes/quads have gone through it's already getting torn up. I would be OK with starting after the trucks, realizing that it would be harder and more demanding, but it would be easier to focus on the course/race and feel safer, rather then constantly looking over my shoulder for the next truck. I'm not sure how the average on the course would compare between riding after the trucks and stopping/waiting for the trucks to pass. probably a wash.
Be careful what you wish for! Starting behind the cars and trucks would be a disaster for the handlebar guys in my opinion. In a major portion of the course, you would be basically riding single track in the 1-2 foot tire ruts, extremely difficult to pass. The quads would have it even tougher, straddling the tire grooves, 2 wheels on the center hump, 2 wheels on the sides. Any lack of concentration and the back or front slides into the groove = highside!! I know from experience!! Used to do course clean up at Parker 425, I pull ribbon from my quad, my wife pull markers and signs from the RZR. On several occasions had some near get-offs, and I was just putting in 2nd gear. Now we're both in the RZR. You would also have to endure miles of deep, rutted, 150 yard wide silt beds. Starting behind everyone would not be my 1st choice.
 

cynicwanderer

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Be careful what you wish for! Starting behind the cars and trucks would be a disaster for the handlebar guys in my opinion. In a major portion of the course, you would be basically riding single track in the 1-2 foot tire ruts, extremely difficult to pass. The quads would have it even tougher, straddling the tire grooves, 2 wheels on the center hump, 2 wheels on the sides. Any lack of concentration and the back or front slides into the groove = highside!! I know from experience!! Used to do course clean up at Parker 425, I pull ribbon from my quad, my wife pull markers and signs from the RZR. On several occasions had some near get-offs, and I was just putting in 2nd gear. Now we're both in the RZR. You would also have to endure miles of deep, rutted, 150 yard wide silt beds. Starting behind everyone would not be my 1st choice.

wouldn't be my 1st choice either, but currently it's actually worse, after the trucks catch up and pass. the course is rutted out, but now I have to figure out how to get ouf the deep silty rutts and climb a 3ft berm without having a getoff in front of a truck going twice the speed trying to pass me and probably can't actually see me. on top of that, I'd have to stop more often to let them pass and it would take even longer. if I run after the trucks, I don't have to worry about stopping to let the trucks pass safely or risk getting rear ended by them. since nothing is probably going to change, because of all the reasons given, I plan to figure out how to ride faster (and yet still have the endurance) and get better on how to get out of deep ruts and berms in order to make the passes safer for me.
 
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