Vertical MIG welding suggestions???

J Burleson

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first, you should really get out of the habit of the tack method, it just isnt a good technique, and make for a weak weld with little penetration. Weld top to bottom, but point it up hill at a 30ish degree angle. Doing this you can use the whip technique and it wont run down hill. Basically whip it slowly and then push the puddle back up into the previous "coin" making sure to get good overlap so you cover the "pinhole" from the last coin. The only place i find you should "trigger" at all is when you get to the end of the weld(if it is at a corner) as the heat soaks the material. By triggering at the end you can let the puddle cool for just long enough that your next trigger will still join the puddle, but wont just run or burn through the material like it would if you stayed on the trigger the whole time. Hope this helps. But whatever you do, practice, practice practice and stop triggering the whole weld!
 

atomicjoe23

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first, you should really get out of the habit of the tack method, it just isnt a good technique, and make for a weak weld with little penetration.

I hear ya. . .that is the first and only time that I have done that. . .thought I would give it a try and see what I thought of it. . .

Weld top to bottom, but point it up hill at a 30ish degree angle. Doing this you can use the whip technique and it wont run down hill. Basically whip it slowly and then push the puddle back up into the previous "coin" making sure to get good overlap so you cover the "pinhole" from the last coin. The only place i find you should "trigger" at all is when you get to the end of the weld(if it is at a corner) as the heat soaks the material. By triggering at the end you can let the puddle cool for just long enough that your next trigger will still join the puddle, but wont just run or burn through the material like it would if you stayed on the trigger the whole time.

Excellent explanation!!!

Hope this helps.

Will probably hope a TON!!!

But whatever you do, practice, practice practice and stop triggering the whole weld!

Roger that!
 

BajaFand

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Discovered by the Germans in 1904, they named it San Diego, which of course in German means a whale's vagina.

I don't think anyone knows what it means anymore. Scholars maintain that the translation was lost centuries ago.
 

ZTFab

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I don't think anyone knows what it means anymore. Scholars maintain that the translation was lost centuries ago.

I'm gonna punch you in the ovary, that's what I'm gonna do. A straight shot. Right to the babymaker.
 

mfs

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I would love to hear how you think moving the tip out affects the shielding gas. Fact is the welder was designed to work that way different nozzles change the tip to work gap. If you going to weld thicker stuff you really do want it sticking out. Recessed is good for thiner stuff.
Here's a good write up on uphill mig:
http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/mig-welding-tip-18.html
http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/mig-welding-tips-articles.html
We just don't normally weld stuff that thick. so down hill is fine.
 

bcon 14

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What i always teach people at my shop is a vertical up weld is pretty much a "test" weld. it really isnt a practical real world weld. (especially in the offroad fab world) i run everything downhill. except for TIG welds when that isnt always possible. by running your weld downhill you can use gravity to your advantage and control the puddle much better.
 

bcon 14

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try mig welding some aluminum uphill and you will learn very quickly that it is pretty much impossible to make it look even decent.
 

BajaFand

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I would love to hear how you think moving the tip out affects the shielding gas. Fact is the welder was designed to work that way different nozzles change the tip to work gap. If you going to weld thicker stuff you really do want it sticking out. Recessed is good for thiner stuff.
Here's a good write up on uphill mig:
http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/mig-welding-tip-18.html
http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/mig-welding-tips-articles.html
We just don't normally weld stuff that thick. so down hill is fine.

In my experience it just seems like there is more of a chance of porosity to occur with the tip sticking out past the nossle. Also like I said before it helps protect the tip from spatter with the nossle sticking out. I don't think it's wrong at all to have the tip sticking out past the nossle, but it's not my way.
 

mfs

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In my experience it just seems like there is more of a chance of porosity to occur with the tip sticking out past the nossle. Also like I said before it helps protect the tip from spatter with the nossle sticking out. I don't think it's wrong at all to have the tip sticking out past the nossle, but it's not my way.

wow... you think and it seems. you got a great argument there. did you look at the link i posted? look in you welding manual that came with your welder you will see the same info. its your job as a welder to keep your tip splatter free using anti splatter helps. the nossle is not a splatter blocker, with flux core wire its not even needed. having to much stick out and or a bad ground will cause more splatter. your just making stuff up based on "i think and it seems" if you have your tip recessed and have more then 1/2 sickout when welding anything other then thin metal technically "your way" is wrong.
 

ZTFab

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wow... you think and it seems. you got a great argument there. did you look at the link i posted? look in you welding manual that came with your welder you will see the same info. its your job as a welder to keep your tip splatter free using anti splatter helps. the nossle is not a splatter blocker, with flux core wire its not even needed. having to much stick out and or a bad ground will cause more splatter. your just making stuff up based on "i think and it seems" if you have your tip recessed and have more then 1/2 sickout when welding anything other then thin metal technically "your way" is wrong.


Simmer down there Beavis.

Eric is a great welder and has been welding long enough and for plenty of well respected shops/companies in order to form his own opinion about what he likes as a welder.

There are a million different ways to do things when it comes to fabrication and opinions or beliefs, when based on experience and fundamentals, are one of the many things that drive technique(s) that set fabricators apart from each other.
 

BajaFand

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Thanks Paul.

Take it easy mfs, I'm just trying to share my experience and things I've learned. My "arguements" weren't arguements because I wasn't trying to argue with you to begin with, just trying to help the guy. You don't have to agree with it and I don't have to agree with you, remember this forum is for discussion. Yes, I did briefly look at your link, but I know what works for me and I'm going to stick with it. I haven't had a failure yet and I'm not new to this.

Anyways, I hope my input has helped.
 

Glamis321

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MIG wont work welding uphill without triggering. you should always go downhill (Flat Iron's description is spot on). If you have to go uphill, use the triggering method, but turn your heat way up in order to get enough penetration. When I had to do my welding test for structural sheet steel, I turned the welder way up (like 350+ wire feed and 28 volts) and welded uphill on 10 gage steel by triggering slowly, giving each tack 10 seconds or so to solidify and then do the next one slightly above. Slightly downward angle to help the metal build a "shelf" to sit on. It doesnt look all that pretty, but it penetrated straight through and passed being bent in half without cracking.
 

snowman

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Welding up hill with a mig is done all the time with structural steel and should never be trigger welded. I'm not talking about structural steel of a truck or buggy chassis . I'm talking about big iron . Chassis work , sheet metal, and thinner plate down hill is fine , but trigger welding is not the way to do it. Set the machine up properly for the welding job at hand.
 

maxyedor

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MIG wont work welding uphill without triggering.

Yes it absolutely will. Welding vertical with upward progression will always penetrate better than downward. You're putting far more heat into the material by moving upward. Do you need to in offroad fabrication, not really. Most material used in offroad can be welded downhill just fine, but you need to turn your machine up to get ample penetration.

Not sure what cert you were going for and who passed you with a vert. up trigger weld, but it's not a "proper" technique. Not a knock against you, but you're not going to pass an X-ray that way, and to suggest that it's good practice is misleading IMHO. I can pass an X-ray with a vertical down weld, but if you tell most inspectors you welded with a downward progression, it's an automatic failure, they won't even look at the film, not just for big iron either.

1" test coupons for vert. up suck, but the X-ray shows you really quickly why uphill works, if you can pass that welding downhill, my hat's off to you.
 

Glamis321

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Not sure what cert you were going for and who passed you with a vert. up trigger weld, but it's not a "proper" technique. Not a knock against you, but you're not going to pass an X-ray that way, and to suggest that it's good practice is misleading IMHO. I can pass an X-ray with a vertical down weld, but if you tell most inspectors you welded with a downward progression, it's an automatic failure, they won't even look at the film, not just for big iron either.

1" test coupons for vert. up suck, but the X-ray shows you really quickly why uphill works, if you can pass that welding downhill, my hat's off to you.

It's an LA City light gage structural test. Can be done with stick or mig, 1 inch welds on butt joints, corner joints, T joints, lap joints, done in horizontal, veritcal and overhead, and a plug weld in flat position. For the vertical ones, uphill triggering was used with the machine turned up high enough to spray arc. That certification allows you to weld anything 1/4 inch or less and is mainly used to weld decking to structural members in the ironworking trade. For anything thicker than that, fluxcore is what we use and that is only allowed uphill (not triggering).

When welding downhill I "whip" the wire down and then back up to push the puddle up out of the way so the heat can be focused on the base metal and penetrate enough. We never really use MIG, especially on stuff that requires Xray, but I used to do a lot of it at my old job as a welder at a manufacturing company. As far as offroading, I prefer to TIG everything.
 

mfs

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Simmer down there Beavis.
uh ok butt head :).

Eric is a great welder and has been welding long enough and for plenty of well respected shops/companies in order to form his own opinion about what he likes as a welder.
im sure hes is, i am not attacking him or saying hes good or bad where just a couple of guys taking shop, having a debate on whos right or wrong started by him because he discredited the info i posted. im not doubting that he can run a welder, lots of people on here can, that doesn't mean that some body could work for a shop for many years and still know little about welding. it sure doesn't mean there a expert. i know this because i use to be like that. i really dont think he needs you to back him up. nothing you posted changes the fact that what he posted is the wrong info.
eric is free to post hes opinion but if hes going to post the wrong info he better be ready to have hes foot put in hes mouth by people that know what their talking about and/or have good info backing it up.
I prefer the nossle to stick out past the tip because the sheilding gas covers better and the tip is more protected from spatter
are you saying that a recessed tip is the solution to spatter? on my miller 212 the nozzle with the tip protruding has a bigger opening (from .5" to .625 pic below) so even if gas wasn't covering better that bigger nozzle would take care of that.The real reason to change it would be to have less sickout not for reason's you posted.

I have to agree to disagree with welding uphill, in my experience it just doesn't produce the results I want.
this is because of your lack of talent and unwillingness to learn. i dont know any other way of saying it, if this offends you then you need some thicker skin. if it makes you feel better i cant do it well ether. it has been proven that it does penetrate better and welding downhill on anything thicker than 1/4" is a higher risk of cold lap and lack of fusion. this is one area of welding that looks do not mean a better weld.
Yes, I did briefly look at your link, but I know what works for me and I'm going to stick with it. I haven't had a failure yet and I'm not new to this.
he's unwillingness to read the link i posted shows your unwilling to learn and grow as a welder, saying he know's all and going to stick with it, this to me is like a teenage boy that knows everything. it also shows that he cares little about welding. eric you may think your top welder in your world but in the big world of welding their is alot to learn out their. i learn every day and my way off welding has changed because of that learning. you must care little about welding to spend that little time on a web site like i posted. as a welder i spend lots of time reading about welding because i care about it, welding its what a big part of what i do.

There are a million different ways to do things when it comes to fabrication and opinions or beliefs, when based on experience and fundamentals, are one of the many things that drive technique(s) that set fabricators apart from each other.
i dont see it that way i see their is a million ways to do it wrong and only a few ways to do it right. right meaning a low risk of failing based off of what experts learned from testing, not self taught welder's making up their own welding procedures learning by hook or by crook or what seams. opinions are just that and are not based on facts.
MIG wont work welding uphill without triggering. you should always go downhill If you have to go uphill, use the triggering method,
wrong! your not going to pass any cert by triggering they do not like that one bit. if you look at the link i posted you will see how he did testing to prove to people like you that is wrong. he challenges you to prove other wise!
but turn your heat way up in order to get enough penetration. When I had to do my welding test for structural sheet steel, I turned the welder way up (like 350+ wire feed and 28 volts) and welded uphill on 10 gage steel by triggering slowly, giving each tack 10 seconds or so to solidify.
this is so not the right info. you where not following the right welding procedure. based off of what i know a cert would have a certain welding procedure and it would say what amps, uphill or down, what wire speed gas flow, etc they dont want welders changing that. before a test i dont think that give you that info they want you to know it. i have read that some shops lock the welders so you cant change it. if your are certified and are not following the right procedure then that could get you fired because the risk for failure is higher because the procedure you made up was not tested and is not what you certified too. when welding up hill you use less amps and less wire speed not more. alot of people are unsucsessfull at welding up hill because they don't think they need to change settings from flat welding it doesn't work its to much wire speed and it drips down. if you look at the link i posted you can see the testing he did to show how even at 15 amps uphill penatrated more than 18amps down hill. 28 volts for 10 gague is way to hot and having to wait 10seconds between tacks is so slow you wouldn't get much welding done in a day like that.

heres the links again: http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/mig-welding-techniques.html
http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/mig-welding-tips-articles.html
http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/mig-welding-tip-18.html
look at the pics toward the bottow of the page showing the downhill way on the left and up hill on the right.

i did some uphill welding on 3/16" i set the welder for 1/8" and i set the wire speed instead of 60 i set it to 50 and that worked pretty good doesnt look all that good but i dont do alot of uphill welding for what i do but would like to get better at it if i had to do thicker stuff and just to be a better welder. i did some up hill on 1/8 and it burned though so easy even with the welder set for 14gauge their is no doubt that it burns hotter up hill.
IMG_4432.jpg

sickout Manuel that comes with the welder even says 1/4 to 1/2 this welder doesn't like alot off stick out it will pop and spatter alot more, i was really unhappy with this when i bought it. changing the nozzle and ground helped.
IMG_4426.jpg

IMG_4434.jpg

here's the old ground i took off the welder
IMG_4427.jpg

new all copper ground
IMG_4429.jpg

vertical up on 3/16 yea i know not that good its hard you try.
IMG_4440.jpg

different nozzle size's for my miller 212 flush is what it comes with.
IMG_4437.jpg
 
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mfs

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another good one he did on Mig Welding Procedures.
http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/mig-welding-procedures.html

qoute from link:"welding procedures? All I gotta do is crank it up until you hear bacon frying.,,, Then I just weld the dog piss out of it."
pretty much want Glamis321 said lol.

more on vert mig answers alot of things talked about in here:
http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/vertical-mig-welding-technique.html
qoute from site:
"Most people dont give a second thought to their vertical mig welding technique. Thats because they always weld downhill, never uphill.
For thick metal, Thats just wrong with a capital R.

Mig welding downhill is like falling off a log. It's easy because gravity is your friend and just pulls the welding puddle along like running a bead of caulk. That is probably how we get sayings like: "You can teach a monkey to Mig weld!"

Mig welding downhill on anything thicker than 1/4" will not penetrate into the corner. Unless you are welding with spray transfer (but I am guessing that if you are using spray transfer, you already know what I am talking about here.) Here is a cross section of what happens when you Mig weld downhill on 3/8" hot rolled steel.
http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/images/lof-mig-tee.jpg
But what separates the Men from the boys or better yet, the welders from the monkeys, is Mig welding uphill. Now gravity becomes your enemy....like the Ice Queen in the Narnia movie...a cold hearted witch!

She doesn't care about how good you can weld downhill or your crappy uphill welding technique or how your coworkers are going to make fun of your weld that looks like hammered dog crap.

Poor welding technique will make your mig weld pile up in the middle because gravity is pulling downward on the puddle. So how do you fight back? With a good Vertical Mig welding technique that's how.

The upside down V is one of the most effective technique for vertical mig welding of lap and tee fillet welds. Sure there are other ways of making a good looking vertical uphill weld, but for ensuring penetration as well as making a good looking uniform weld, the upside down V is a good way to go.

Here is a sketch of the technique and also a down and dirty youtube video of this Vertical uphill welding technique.Peace Out."
 

Glamis321

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this is so not the right info. you where not following the right welding procedure. based off of what i know a cert would have a certain welding procedure and it would say what amps, uphill or down, what wire speed gas flow, etc they dont want welders changing that. before a test i dont think that give you that info they want you to know it. i have read that some shops lock the welders so you cant change it. if your are certified and are not following the right procedure then that could get you fired because the risk for failure is higher because the procedure you made up was not tested and is not what you certified too. when welding up hill you use less amps and less wire speed not more. alot of people are unsucsessfull at welding up hill because they don't think they need to change settings from flat welding it doesn't work its to much wire speed and it drips down. if you look at the link i posted you can see the testing he did to show how even at 15 amps uphill penatrated more than 18amps down hill. 28 volts for 10 gague is way to hot and having to wait 10seconds between tacks is so slow you wouldn't get much welding done in a day like that.

I did pass that test and it was an approved WPS written by a certified welding inspector for the City of L.A., and the weld was visually inspected and the piece was completely bent in half and the weld did not break or crack. Keep in mind that this was used for 10 gage sheet steel (.135"), and is not meant to be used on thick stuff. Your little 212 probably won't even go high enough to do this.

the heat is turned up so high because triggering is basically tacking over and over, lower heat would not give you good enough penetration. Obviously, if you were to run a continuous bead at such high settings you would blow the whole plate away. The long wait in between tacks allows it to solidify enough so that it doesnt get blown away when you tack again. Also, as I stated before, this was a 1 inch weld on a test plate, not some piece that has 5 feet of weld. When we actually weld in the field, we use stick welding or flux core going uphill if its vertical. The point of explaining that method was to show that you can get full penetration triggering uphill on thin stuff with MIG, not that its the best or most ideal way of doing things. As I said before, it doesnt look that pretty, and I would prefer TIG if you have access to one.
 
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