$$$--WE GOT BUSTED, but we've LEARNED--$$$

Lucho

Well-Known Member
Posts
2,685
Reaction
261
We got docked 80 minutes, fortunately, we still got the Class 10 win. I checked our speeds on the highway sections and we were clocked at 61mph, 64mph (the highest I think), lots of 60.34, 60.25mph, there was one at 60.034 mph. So it looks like we got 20 minutes for that, which I still don't know how they figured it out because how much over 60 mph is allowable, how they figure out thenths, etc...
By the way, Harley and Kory were smarter, instead of trying to hold their speeds at 60 mph, they were holding it at 55 mph or so, which means they never went over the speed limit. Now that's cool. We learned something new.

But what really puzzles me are the course diviation penalties. We have our own tracking system, where we track our vehicles (including chase trucks), and I don't see where we have cut the course when we superimpose our tracks over the course. Yes, we do have a few deviations, except that we took the long way around off a right turn or left turn a couple of times. It's less than .02th of a mile!
We're reviewing our entire race right now, mile by mile to see how they came up with 60 minutes of penalty. Before I call SCORE does anyone know the formula they use when you miss a turn or come off the wash, too late or too soon, etc? I'd love to know.

Still, this should send a big warning shot TO EVERYONE, because come the 1000, we all want to feel that we are playing on the same level field.

I thought I would never say this, because pre-running in Baja is so much fun; and at times even more fun than the race itself, but maybe we should be looking at NO PRE-RUNNING and NO COURSE MARKINGS! This means that everyone must make sure they have their tracking system properly working and tested, and don't wait until the last minute to do so. You race by what your GPS tells you where the course is (which is what I'm doing with Trac'n) and everyone is given a course book to refer in case of problems. What do you guys think? NEW-AGE STUFF, BABY!
If we still want to pre-run, we use our GPS and then come back and hand the chip to IRC or SCORE to find out if we stayed on the course. I do this all the time. I lay out my next course for our next SuperCourse event with Google Earth. Then I drive it or ride it with my GPS on. I come back to the office and overlay my tracks with the original course I set and see where I've been. Once it's checked out and adjusted, we use the final layout to mark the course. It works!

Our approach to Baja and for that matter at all future events as always is to stay on the course at all times (which we have), don't look for short-cuts or easy climbs--ON THE OTHER HAND, I just want to hold promoters accountable that they will do their job and keep everyone honest. That the system will always be used from now on! No matter what race, no matter where, including the SF250. Wouldn't that be a refreshing thought.

I would also like to implore our promoters to give IRC (or whomever they use) all the latitude possible in order that they can provide records and AUTOMATIC penalties (based on parameters set by each promoter), so that we don't have to wait weeks for the results. The national media does not like that and they will soon walk away from our sport if we can't give them "official results" following the events. It may cost more but we must do that.
 

Fourstroker

Well-Known Member
Posts
4,965
Reaction
1,175
We got docked 80 minutes, fortunately, we still got the Class 10 win. I checked our speeds on the highway sections and we were clocked at 61mph, 64mph (the highest I think), lots of 60.34, 60.25mph, there was one at 60.034 mph. So it looks like we got 20 minutes for that, which I still don't know how they figured it out because how much over 60 mph is allowable, how they figure out thenths, etc...
By the way, Harley and Kory were smarter, instead of trying to hold their speeds at 60 mph, they were holding it at 55 mph or so, which means they never went over the speed limit. Now that's cool. We learned something new.

But what really puzzles me are the course diviation penalties. We have our own tracking system, where we track our vehicles (including chase trucks), and I don't see where we have cut the course when we superimpose our tracks over the course. Yes, we do have a few deviations, except that we took the long way around off a right turn or left turn a couple of times. It's less than .02th of a mile!
We're reviewing our entire race right now, mile by mile to see how they came up with 60 minutes of penalty. Before I call SCORE does anyone know the formula they use when you miss a turn or come off the wash, too late or too soon, etc? I'd love to know.

Still, this should send a big warning shot TO EVERYONE, because come the 1000, we all want to feel that we are playing on the same level field.

I thought I would never say this, because pre-running in Baja is so much fun; and at times even more fun than the race itself, but maybe we should be looking at NO PRE-RUNNING and NO COURSE MARKINGS! This means that everyone must make sure they have their tracking system properly working and tested, and don't wait until the last minute to do so. You race by what your GPS tells you where the course is (which is what I'm doing with Trac'n) and everyone is given a course book to refer in case of problems. What do you guys think? NEW-AGE STUFF, BABY!
If we still want to pre-run, we use our GPS and then come back and hand the chip to IRC or SCORE to find out if we stayed on the course. I do this all the time. I lay out my next course for our next SuperCourse event with Google Earth. Then I drive it or ride it with my GPS on. I come back to the office and overlay my tracks with the original course I set and see where I've been. Once it's checked out and adjusted, we use the final layout to mark the course. It works!

Our approach to Baja and for that matter at all future events as always is to stay on the course at all times (which we have), don't look for short-cuts or easy climbs--ON THE OTHER HAND, I just want to hold promoters accountable that they will do their job and keep everyone honest. That the system will always be used from now on! No matter what race, no matter where, including the SF250. Wouldn't that be a refreshing thought.

I would also like to implore our promoters to give IRC (or whomever they use) all the latitude possible in order that they can provide records and AUTOMATIC penalties (based on parameters set by each promoter), so that we don't have to wait weeks for the results. The national media does not like that and they will soon walk away from our sport if we can't give them "official results" following the events. It may cost more but we must do that.

So you don't waste your time looking at the whole course for deviations. They only handed out penalties for deviations in a couple spots. It said on the bottom of the official results where those locations were. I would start there.
 

Lucho

Well-Known Member
Posts
2,685
Reaction
261
So you don't waste your time looking at the whole course for deviations. They only handed out penalties for deviations in a couple spots. It said on the bottom of the official results where those locations were. I would start there.
Thanks, I'll give it a shot.
 

dezertboy69

Well-Known Member
Posts
64
Reaction
1
so... they are saying its okay to cut the course here but not over there?? thats kinda wierd dont you think? if they are handin out course deviation penalties it should be for the entire course.
 

Tipracer

Well-Known Member
Posts
3,551
Reaction
326
multiple lines in places like moatmi wash is no big deal....cutting out three poles is no bueno
 

Lucho

Well-Known Member
Posts
2,685
Reaction
261
I checked the areas where they say we are being penalized (San Vicente, Uruapan Cementary) and checked our tracks against the course and we indeed have a few places where we were not exactly on the course. For example:

1. Around RM289+ Mikey took another trail for 1.27 miles. If he would have stayed on the course he would have gone 1.27 mile -- NO GAIN

2. Just past that spot, on the beach, Mikey took a main road and went 0.67 miles before joining the course. If he would have stayed on the course he would have only gone 0.51 miles. So WE LOST 0.16 of a mile.

3. Around RM 314 Mikey took a trail for 0.48 mile but if he would have stayed on the course he would have only gone 0.43 of a mile. So WE LOST 0.05 of a mile.

4. Just past Herrenderia at about RM320 Mikey took a trail for 0.49 of a mile and if he would have been on the course he would have had to go 0.54 of a mile. So WE GAINED 0.05 of a mile.

5. At RM 330, Mikey went around the hill for a total of 0.45 of a mile. But if he would have stayed on the course and went up the steep hill, he would have only had to go 0.14 of a mile. So WE LOST 0.31 of a mile.

6. At RM331??? Mikey took a trail for 0.29 of a mile. If he was on the course he would have gone 0.34 of a mile. So WE GAINED 0.05 of a mile.

7. At RM332 Mikey went on a trail for 0.20 of a mile and on the course he would have only gone for 0.18. So WE LOST 0.02 of a mile.

8. At RM357+ Mikey went 0.12 of a mile on a trail but had he stayed on the course he would have had to go 0.21 of a mile. So WE GAINED 0.09 of a mile.

9. At RM 376 Mike went 0.20 of a mile but on the course he would have had to go 0.21 of a mile. So WE GAINED 0.01 of a mile.

So it looks like in total we lost 0.35 of a mile on these shortcuts. There has to be more areas, I'm sure, but according to the official results, these are the areas where the penalties were levied on us.

Unlike others that feel insulted, I don't think that SCORE is calling us or Mikey specifically, cheaters. I believe our deviations were unintended and perhaps the markings were not all there. So there's got to be a "dual-responsibility" here.
What I'm trying to figure out is how did we get penalized 60 minutes??? I've got a call in to SCORE, Sal, Paul, et. al. hoping they can tell me the formula they used and specifically where Mikey was penalized and for how much each time.
I have no problem being docked for not staying on the course all the time, no matter how insignificant our deviations were, but I would like to know how it is all computed. Once I know I will let everyone know because I think it's important that everyone understand how everything is going to go down from now on.

With respect to our speed on the highway, as I said before, that was our fault as Mikey was trying to maintain the car at 60 mph which is hard. Next time we'll aim for the 55mph benchmark to be safe.

Lucho
 

Kbach66

Well-Known Member
Posts
605
Reaction
14
While you say there were spots where you went either the same distance, or more mileage than if you would've run the "true race course" what's saying that by taking the other lines, you weren't taking a much smoother/faster line?

Look at it this way:
If you did the 1.27 miles on the course in super tight, whooped out, boulder filled section you would average 20mph but the other line is a graded powerline where you're averaging 100mph so while you did in fact run the same distance, it was clearly faster for you.

Just playing devils advocate here. I wasn't on the course, and don't know what lines you took. It's just what I think about when I read your post.

Either way you look at it....it sucks that you were docked 80 minutes, but luckily still kept the lead for the win! Congrats on that as it's a major accomplishment no matter how you look at it.
 

jo maoma

Heisenberg
Posts
1,612
Reaction
351
1. Around RM289+ Mikey took another trail for 1.27 miles. If he would have stayed on the course he would have gone 1.27 mile -- NO GAIN

so because someone covers the same distance that means they didn't gain an advantage?
i would hate to be the person in charge of selling that bit of logic to anyone at score... :D
 

mexgamer

Well-Known Member
Posts
1,646
Reaction
474
While you say there were spots where you went either the same distance, or more mileage than if you would've run the "true race course" what's saying that by taking the other lines, you weren't taking a much smoother/faster line?

Look at it this way:
If you did the 1.27 miles on the course in super tight, whooped out, boulder filled section you would average 20mph but the other line is a graded powerline where you're averaging 100mph so while you did in fact run the same distance, it was clearly faster for you.

Just playing devils advocate here. I wasn't on the course, and don't know what lines you took. It's just what I think about when I read your post.

Either way you look at it....it sucks that you were docked 80 minutes, but luckily still kept the lead for the win! Congrats on that as it's a major accomplishment no matter how you look at it.
thats right, some lines might be longer but faster and that is an advantage, but im just saying, maybe it isnt you case lucho, but still u got the 1st place, so congrats!!!! Do u know Jesus Jaime Gonzales? he is a friend of mine, he finished 9th class 10 but after score reviewed the IRC tracker he is 6th place, good job.

STILL WAITING FOR CLASS 40 results :mad:
 

manchaman

Reverse Engineer
Posts
60
Reaction
9
It would be nearly impossible for the motorcycles to follow GPS... not a viable solution. The course markings are fine. SCORE just needs to clarify how they determined the deviations and how the penalties were given. It should be black and white and if so, everyone should be able to abide by them.

Josh Caster, teammate of Wayne Matlock (1A) is trying to rally participants in the 500 to have SCORE provide this level of clarity. I would suggest getting in touch with him. I think it's a worthwhile effort. Knowing SCORE, they would probably just release the last of the class results and never say a word and not explain themselves. We're paying customers and deserve an explanation! The only time it seems they are compelled to publicly explain themselves is when it involves Robby Gordon (which explains a lot).

http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65872
 

Laurie

Well-Known Member
Posts
956
Reaction
62
I'm so happy to hear someone take responsibility for their team and not just get upset. You have my respect.

I think the biggest issue here isn't whether you gained time by taking a different course, I think it's more about having permission to take those roads. Landowners are getting upset when we take different roads then we are given permission to take. Many off-roaders have not listened when Sal has repeatedly told us to stay on course. I know it's easy to miss a turn or not see a marking so some of it is done innocently. But nonetheless if we're off course we are off course.
 
Last edited:

manchaman

Reverse Engineer
Posts
60
Reaction
9
I think the biggest issue here isn't whether you gained time by taking a different course, I think it's more about having permission to take those roads. Landowners are getting upset when we take different roads then we are given permission to take. Many off-roaders have not listen when Sal has repeatedly told us to stay on course.
Excellent and very important point. Most forget this... it's hardly a free-for-all down there and the more we abuse the privileges to ride (or drive) and race down there the less opportunity there will be.
 

Gadzooks2

Well-Known Member
Posts
479
Reaction
222
Staying on course is even more important at BITD races where those "alternate" lines weather they are longer or shorter are on some protected BLM land leaves no excuse for deviating from the course.
If you deviate 6" at Indy you are in the wall and done so I don't see a problem with promoters clamping down on course deviations at all. I think it is long over due. I know we have lost races in the past for no other reason than staying on the course where we belong when others didn't.
 

Lucho

Well-Known Member
Posts
2,685
Reaction
261
While you say there were spots where you went either the same distance, or more mileage than if you would've run the "true race course" what's saying that by taking the other lines, you weren't taking a much smoother/faster line?

Look at it this way:
If you did the 1.27 miles on the course in super tight, whooped out, boulder filled section you would average 20mph but the other line is a graded powerline where you're averaging 100mph so while you did in fact run the same distance, it was clearly faster for you.

Just playing devils advocate here. I wasn't on the course, and don't know what lines you took. It's just what I think about when I read your post.

Either way you look at it....it sucks that you were docked 80 minutes, but luckily still kept the lead for the win! Congrats on that as it's a major accomplishment no matter how you look at it.
You are absolutely right, there can be alot of difference in speeds even though the distances are the same. In our case, just looking at our overlay, most of those errant lines we took came about as a result of missing the turns and taking the longer way, not necessarily because it was faster but because we missed the turn.

I spoke to Paul Fish this afternoon and he explained the penalty against us. I just got to the office and I will look where he said we committed the infraction. It was none of the ones I've listed above. So I'll have to check it out.

But I also told him and Sal that I congratulate them for taking this to where it should be and they know that this took way too long. He said that they wanted to be triple-sure. He already mentioned that for the next one, the penalties (if any) will be more automatic so that the awards do mean something. I've got to believe that they will try.
I also told him that Pandora's Box has been open and they must continue to enforce the rules using the tracking system. He agreed.

Lucho
 

KC Amigo

Well-Known Member
Posts
48
Reaction
3
Lucho,

When you talked to score did they say anything about why they picked certain spots to penalize more? By what they listed (San Vicente, Uruapan Cemetary, etc.) I am under the impression that they may be more interested in keeping us off of trails that upset the land owners, (someone else already mentioned this). I think they also want us to stay on course as best we can, but I think keeping the locals happy figures in as well. Any thoughts?
 

Lucho

Well-Known Member
Posts
2,685
Reaction
261
Well, I just looked at the overlay and between RM298 and RM300 we took the lower line, instead of the turn-off (left) where the course went through the mountain. The distances are exactly the same 1.27 miles, but being at the lower level allowed us to go faster than if we were in the goat's trail atop the hill. We only rejoined the course about half way where many stayed at the bottom, so that's why we only got a 60 minute penalty. Had we taken the lower level all the way to RM300 we would have received a 120 minute penalty. We've learned.
In our case it was totally unintentional, but we made a mistake and must pay for it.
And that closes this chapter for our Class 10, Baja 500 effort. See you guys in Vegas.
 
Posts
7,201
Reaction
3,507
I checked the areas where they say we are being penalized (San Vicente, Uruapan Cementary) and checked our tracks against the course and we indeed have a few places where we were not exactly on the course. For example:

1. Around RM289+ Mikey took another trail for 1.27 miles. If he would have stayed on the course he would have gone 1.27 mile -- NO GAIN

2. Just past that spot, on the beach, Mikey took a main road and went 0.67 miles before joining the course. If he would have stayed on the course he would have only gone 0.51 miles. So WE LOST 0.16 of a mile.

3. Around RM 314 Mikey took a trail for 0.48 mile but if he would have stayed on the course he would have only gone 0.43 of a mile. So WE LOST 0.05 of a mile.

4. Just past Herrenderia at about RM320 Mikey took a trail for 0.49 of a mile and if he would have been on the course he would have had to go 0.54 of a mile. So WE GAINED 0.05 of a mile.

5. At RM 330, Mikey went around the hill for a total of 0.45 of a mile. But if he would have stayed on the course and went up the steep hill, he would have only had to go 0.14 of a mile. So WE LOST 0.31 of a mile.

6. At RM331??? Mikey took a trail for 0.29 of a mile. If he was on the course he would have gone 0.34 of a mile. So WE GAINED 0.05 of a mile.

7. At RM332 Mikey went on a trail for 0.20 of a mile and on the course he would have only gone for 0.18. So WE LOST 0.02 of a mile.

8. At RM357+ Mikey went 0.12 of a mile on a trail but had he stayed on the course he would have had to go 0.21 of a mile. So WE GAINED 0.09 of a mile.

9. At RM 376 Mike went 0.20 of a mile but on the course he would have had to go 0.21 of a mile. So WE GAINED 0.01 of a mile.

So it looks like in total we lost 0.35 of a mile on these shortcuts. There has to be more areas, I'm sure, but according to the official results, these are the areas where the penalties were levied on us.

Unlike others that feel insulted, I don't think that SCORE is calling us or Mikey specifically, cheaters. I believe our deviations were unintended and perhaps the markings were not all there. So there's got to be a "dual-responsibility" here.
What I'm trying to figure out is how did we get penalized 60 minutes??? I've got a call in to SCORE, Sal, Paul, et. al. hoping they can tell me the formula they used and specifically where Mikey was penalized and for how much each time.
I have no problem being docked for not staying on the course all the time, no matter how insignificant our deviations were, but I would like to know how it is all computed. Once I know I will let everyone know because I think it's important that everyone understand how everything is going to go down from now on.

With respect to our speed on the highway, as I said before, that was our fault as Mikey was trying to maintain the car at 60 mph which is hard. Next time we'll aim for the 55mph benchmark to be safe.

Lucho
He should have just stayed on the course, and not sped (speeded) on the Highway - it is that simple! At least that is what I have read here on RDC from all the experts.
 
Posts
7,201
Reaction
3,507
I thought I would never say this, because pre-running in Baja is so much fun; and at times even more fun than the race itself, but maybe we should be looking at NO PRE-RUNNING and NO COURSE MARKINGS! This means that everyone must make sure they have their tracking system properly working and tested, and don't wait until the last minute to do so. You race by what your GPS tells you where the course is (which is what I'm doing with Trac'n) and everyone is given a course book to refer in case of problems. What do you guys think? NEW-AGE STUFF, BABY!
I tell you what: I will give you a GPS Trail to race, at race speed, and if you can follow it without getting off the "Course" I'll give you $100.00. If you get "lost" or deviate from the course, all you have to do is admit that the above idea of yours is really stupid!

Beyond that, could you imagine the disadvantage of being first on the road; and the traffic jam the would follow as everyone stacked up behind the leader.

Ever driven on the Interstate in really thick Fog with no car in front of you, using the "Hellen Keller Method" of driving, and had some fool come flying up behind you, then pass, then put on his brakes when he realizes that he can't see any farther ahead than you could and dosen't have your tail lights to follow anymore.

You can't race off of a GPS!
 

Laurie

Well-Known Member
Posts
956
Reaction
62
Do you know if IRC will be required for Primm? I didn't see anything on Score's website. I hope so because I like watching the race from a laptop.
 

Lucho

Well-Known Member
Posts
2,685
Reaction
261
Lucho,

When you talked to score did they say anything about why they picked certain spots to penalize more? By what they listed (San Vicente, Uruapan Cemetary, etc.) I am under the impression that they may be more interested in keeping us off of trails that upset the land owners, (someone else already mentioned this). I think they also want us to stay on course as best we can, but I think keeping the locals happy figures in as well. Any thoughts?
I think that particular section was especially sensitive to the area, and that among other locations was used for several reasons: 1) It was never allowed to be used but in years past, they didn't seem to take it too seriously. This time they had to, 2.) The trail is the one section they were allowed and as I understand it, it was marked at other races but few took it, and 3.) They finally decided to get serious about "tracking" because they see the future coming in Baja and it doesn't look pretty unless we rein-in the racers and stay on the marked course.
All these will indeed help keep people happy down there. And don't get me wrong, they love the races in Baja and they make a weekend out of it, with big BBQs and family and friends coming to see it. It's just when we tear up their fields and crops that they take exception. Wouldn't you?
 
Top