Who makes the best TT today?

Steve_Sourapas

Well-Known Member
Posts
1,398
Reaction
1,356
Any real significant differences between today’s tt versus 3 years ago ? Also, I was always impressed by the sheer amount of prerunning done by top tt drivers, does it still matter as much today given satellite maps and gps?


Sent from my iPhone using race-deZert
The first builder that can get an AWD truck to have full front wheel travel and is dependable will raise the bar compared to the rear wheel drive trucks. Hats off to the guys that can spend weeks prerunning I would think it has to help but it's not in the cards for our team.
 

BANNED4LIFE

Well-Known Member
Posts
5,368
Reaction
6,797
All of the "PREMIUM" TTbuilders are building the SAME trucks (basically)....any of the "PREMIUM" DRIVERS can and do win in any of them, i.e. ANDY, . . This years races have been decided by PREMIUM starting positions, which was dictated by SLIPPERY tactics at the sf250 in the draw...too bad....how to make it more fair? 3 minute start gaps for first 20 trucks? ...or keep it the way it is? Races determined by 3-5 Mile banzal qualifying run? Or when one of the PREMIUM drivers gets a 4x4 and out qualifies everyone everyrace and always gets to start first everytime??? .......
 

Chris Tobin

Well-Known Member
Posts
5,998
Reaction
1,177
All of the "PREMIUM" TTbuilders are building the SAME trucks (basically)....any of the "PREMIUM" DRIVERS can and do win in any of them, i.e. ANDY, . . This years races have been decided by PREMIUM starting positions, which was dictated by SLIPPERY tactics at the sf250 in the draw...too bad....how to make it more fair? 3 minute start gaps for first 20 trucks? ...or keep it the way it is? Races determined by 3-5 Mile banzal qualifying run? Or when one of the PREMIUM drivers gets a 4x4 and out qualifies everyone everyrace and always gets to start first everytime??? .......
Do the rules require the same truck be used in qualifying and the race? Could someone with deep pockets run a 4WD for quals, then a more reliable 2WD for the race???
 

dan200

#BSF200
Posts
15,784
Reaction
7,239
Do the rules require the same truck be used in qualifying and the race? Could someone with deep pockets run a 4WD for quals, then a more reliable 2WD for the race???
You have to run the same vehicle. But, there are people use a "qualifying set up" (usually in gears/transmission/different tires and maybe a different tune) and then swap into a "race set up" for race day.

SCORE Competition Regulation 25 transmission says- Every vehicle in competition except motos and quads must have a functional reverse. Four-Wheel drive vehicles must be capable of being driven through the front wheels.

I read that to mean that the vehicle has to be able to drive across the starting line with 4 wd but i bet it if it was set up to be quickly disconnected at some point it would be legal to keep racing in two- wheel drive. I forget if the current 4wd set ups are selectable on the fly. I know in the better ultra 4 cars they yank a lever and go from 4wd to 2wd based on the conditions they are in at any given time. Not sure if the 4wd tts we are seeing are like that but I don't see why they wouldn't be. Or maybe they actually have to remove the front driveshaft.

I know in BITD Pistol has qualified with paddles but then switched to regular tires for the race. Nobody impounds vehicles after tech in either SCORE or BITD so obviously if you want to do mods you can.

My conversation with Jesse Jones, who knows how to win and has driven both says 4wd is the way of the future. "Game Changer" he said. But its a complex system and its like a 100k upgrade. And it has moving drive parts that are under load and there is potential for failure there.

I would love to see the results of just these 4wd. I have stop watch timed them and they clearly have advantages when it comes to traction and come out of the corners with way less roost and more control than the 2wds. People reference the 2wd being more reliable but are we sure that is the case? 2wd is for sure tried and true and obviously works well but is there really a fail rate in the 4x4s that can be traced to the 4x4 parts? Can we really call them less reliable? Or are there so few that theres really not any data to crunch numbers with yet?

There are varied opinions about if you should have to race in your qualifying set up or not. Personally I think the guys who made enough good life choices to be able to afford to having the manpower, technology, and equipment to gear swap, tune, trans, tire change etc should be allowed to. But a truck that qualified with a working 4wd system should have to at least start with that system. If someone has a good argument as to why that shouldn't be OK I could change my feelings on my stance
 
Last edited:

dan200

#BSF200
Posts
15,784
Reaction
7,239
I do believe Andy had his new state of the art TT made as a 2wd because he felt it to be a more reliable platform. He also has so much skill and takes his pre running so seriously that he can run upfront against vehicles that may be "better" just because the dude can drive.
 

Steve Marolda

Well-Known Member
Posts
153
Reaction
261
Reading all this reminded me of the old turbo BMW F1 engines. Their "qualifying set up" was to replace the wastegate with a block-off plate. In that configuration they got 1500hp from a 1.5 liter, 4-cylinder engine!
 

DanMcMillin

Crane Motorsports
Posts
2,542
Reaction
5,869
I've driven an AWD TT and they're wild. Definitely something to look out for in the next 2-3 years
 

BigBlue&Goldie

Well-Known Member
Posts
448
Reaction
879
But a truck that qualified with a working 4wd system should have to at least start with that system. If someone has a good argument as to why that shouldn't be OK I could change my feelings on my stance
My opinion is it's an "unlimited" class. If a team were to qualify with 4wd and then remove the drivetrain from the transfer case forward, it's really no different in my eyes than changing out a trans, motor package, adding spare tires, more fuel, etc. on race day. Should Pete have had to race on paddles when he ran them in qualifying? Should Daniels have to leave his boost knob in the same setting as it was in qualifying? I personally don't think so. In just about every aspect of racing people have a qualifying setup that is often times different than race day setup. Budgets and trophy truck racing shouldn't be in the same conversation; the dude that is willing to spend the most money to win should have that right in an "unlimited" class. The main chassis is what SCORE/BITD looks at as the truck; not how many wheels it's capable of turning.
 

dan200

#BSF200
Posts
15,784
Reaction
7,239
My opinion is it's an "unlimited" class. If a team were to qualify with 4wd and then remove the drivetrain from the transfer case forward, it's really no different in my eyes than changing out a trans, motor package, adding spare tires, more fuel, etc. on race day. Should Pete have had to race on paddles when he ran them in qualifying? Should Daniels have to leave his boost knob in the same setting as it was in qualifying? I personally don't think so. In just about every aspect of racing people have a qualifying setup that is often times different than race day setup. Budgets and trophy truck racing shouldn't be in the same conversation; the dude that is willing to spend the most money to win should have that right in an "unlimited" class. The main chassis is what SCORE/BITD looks at as the truck; not how many wheels it's capable of turning.
You make a good point and may have just changed my mind on my stance. It makes things more expensive for those guys I suppose but I have always found it hard to be sympathetic in those regards. Years ago I told Roger Norman I felt bad for something that happened to him. I don't recall what it was about but it was something minor and i was just being polite. Then he says "Don't feel sorry for me. I have a trophy truck."

I wonder if we will get to a point where the TT class will split into TT and TT4WD.
 

isdtbower

Well-Known Member
Posts
286
Reaction
175
There can be a difference between driving at 2wd or 4wd fast rig. It seems like it depends on how the driver likes to steer. 2WD rear steer or 4WD front steer. Many still steer 4wd like a 2WD rig as that is the way they drive and know...and PRERUN. Rear steering seems like the most risky in turning, and pre-running gives that driver confidence to do it. The 4WD front steering driver will go in deeper, stop harder/faster because the rear brakes help the front brakes stop, get pulled around the turn safer, and then accelerate out faster. (That is classic no-prerun strategy).

That being said, if your 4WD front does not turn well due to your geometry and settings, you are going to revert back to rear steering and suffer the extra 4WD drag and only benefit through the silt beds.. Wheel Dyno operators easily see 10% extra loss in HP with 4WD drivetrains. Common in Ultra4 is in the range of 30% total loss at the tires. I bet Pro4 is less due to drivetrains designed lighter and more efficient. Today. I bet most of the top teams are running full time in 4WD as the drag on the front wheels is so much in 2WD.

In Ultra4 the rigs have to turn around rocks so there is a premium on turn angle vs travel. Depending on the IFS design, turn angles vary from 30-39* and travel 18-24" Some are coming real close to combing both high numbers above 92"+ track width. CV manufacturers complain about balls falling out..not about burning up. The design criteria of a IFS dictates that there is no or very little plunge so you don't have that spline lock to create high heat.

4WD IFS is a very different animal as many are finding out, and as many are making improvements and learning with every build. Steering has to be 3X bomb proof and front diff gearing and sizing is a constant problem. Some are trying portals to solve the gear wear issue and gaining back the ground clearance similar to 2WD IFS.

All of this lends quickly to Hybrid technology. I bet we see it in a SXS in the next couple years. Too easy, cleans up the drive train issues, and maximizes turn and travel numbers comparable to TT. Drivers may love it.

Edit: 2WD, 4WD, Hybrid 4WD
 
Last edited:

JDDurfey

Well-Known Member
Posts
2,915
Reaction
3,227
I think the SCORE rule about 4wd needing to be driven through the front wheels is referring to the classes that require 4 wheel drive. Since TT is an unlimited class, it should be within the rules to pull over and removed 4wd components if one chooses too.

However, this would be a complete waste of time unless the parts were broken and prohibiting the vehicle from continuing on the course. The front end travel is limited because of the axles. So pulling axles, and adjusting bump stops and limit straps would be necessary to make the front travel the same as a 2wd. That wouldn't be a quick process.
 

idealer

Well-Known Member
Posts
652
Reaction
63
Driver with no downtime wins. #luck #skill #prep #support (no order)

Any TT MFG that has won in past 3y is capable.

perfected AWD is another story...
 

AZ7000'

Well-Known Member
Posts
2,202
Reaction
1,669
"FAST" driver with no downtime wins. Andy or Rob can still get 4 flats and still beat the guy who constantly finishes 3rd-6th.
Come on Pat, we know you mean #4thplace.... Give Dan a break!
 

Bricoop

Well-Known Member
Posts
5,303
Reaction
2,753
Just a matter of reliability until 4wd start OA on a regular basis. The Crandon 2wd head-start is something like 25 or 30 seconds.

F1 made a lot of rules changes because of the amount of money teams were willing to spend during qualifying, they used to have qualifying engines designed to increase HP 50%, but wouldn't survive to lap 10. In reference to our Aero thread, one car even used a 55hp fan to suck the car to the ground to create downforce. But all these are to create speed within very strict rules. I'm not sure how much of an advantage one could create given an unlimited rule set. I've seen children as codrivers to reduce weight, removing spares, gear & suspension changes. I assume some guys shave tires, maybe turn up the wick on the engine?

One huge tech factor in other racing is active suspension. Something I haven't seen much in off-road.
 

firedog

Well-Known Member
Posts
2,609
Reaction
553
The best one will be in the Off Road Hall of Fame when desert racing is a thing of the past! It will be the manufacture with the most wins!! Carry on.
 

isdtbower

Well-Known Member
Posts
286
Reaction
175
One huge tech factor in other racing is active suspension. Something I haven't seen much in off-road.
Gotta keep up the tech to get that last 2% advantage. Right now a new differentiator is 4WD, and within that, how "well" it is accomplished. All of this is open from an intellectual property standpoint and fair game.

Active suspension was held up by shaft velocity, heat, and slow activation of mechanicals and digital. It seems to be all coming together and we might see it soon as a spin off of an OEM digital system. I would think a first step would be to put the antis and sway bars into the shocks. Then decide whether one straight line tune would be sufficient for a race. I am not seeing any mystery in the mechanicals, just the sensors (accelerometers), programming...and patents. This is a way higher level than suspension design and probably up there with engine development.

So if the digital revolution has helped double horsepower in the last 20 years...Will Active suspension allow the drivers to race twice as fast?

Suspension changes will obsolete a chassis. Active suspension may be a bolt in with the only question now being the strength of the cage...
 

Bricoop

Well-Known Member
Posts
5,303
Reaction
2,753
Gotta keep up the tech to get that last 2% advantage. Right now a new differentiator is 4WD, and within that, how "well" it is accomplished. All of this is open from an intellectual property standpoint and fair game.

Active suspension was held up by shaft velocity, heat, and slow activation of mechanicals and digital. It seems to be all coming together and we might see it soon as a spin off of an OEM digital system. I would think a first step would be to put the antis and sway bars into the shocks. Then decide whether one straight line tune would be sufficient for a race. I am not seeing any mystery in the mechanicals, just the sensors (accelerometers), programming...and patents. This is a way higher level than suspension design and probably up there with engine development.

So if the digital revolution has helped double horsepower in the last 20 years...Will Active suspension allow the drivers to race twice as fast?

Suspension changes will obsolete a chassis. Active suspension may be a bolt in with the only question now being the strength of the cage...
Totally agree. There have been some magic bullets in the last 30 years that have created huge differences between vehicles, while it seems now most top TTs are pretty similar in OA times. I believe 4wd is the next huge jump, once that gets worked out. Hybrids have changed the way we think about road racing cars. I believe those will come after the 4wds get figured out and the technology gets some time to mature.
 
Top