Who makes the best TT today?

dan200

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Jesse Jones Giesers were, More than once he picked up a new truck and went racing. He also won in a brand new truck.
More than once I think. And then he sold them at the finish line

He said it was cheaper than prepping them.
 

Wicked Al

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That isn't really a question that can be broadly answered. A lot of guys have deals worked out with their builders that are worth much more than a 3% improvement. A race car is a "package", so there are other factors besides which one is thought to be the best. The best truck with poor support isn't worth a whole lot if you can't keep it out of the prep bay. The big question is why the truck is 3% better........shock tuning, suspension geometry, engine package, trans gearing, aerodynamics, etc.? The other question is where is the truck 3% better........Laughlin, Baja, etc.? With how many different makes of trucks are winning races, I don't think you could ever say one truck is that much better than the others.

Thanks Steve and Mike,

I would have been SO happy for those alien dust goggles at the 2017 V2R...so happy.

I am asking this question for a reason. I have developed a suspension system (everyone can roll eyes here) that I feel CAN give the person who uses it a significant advantage. If all you're doing is hitting whoops at speed, maybe not so much, if you're doing KOH, huge! In any event, I am not a builder and I am trying to figure out how to monetize this tech. Do I go to the team? Go to the builder? Which builder? Do I offer a sole source or open licensing to everyone? This is not something you can add on after a race, it needs to be designed in from the beginning of the frame build and then there will be a lot of tuning after it's built. That means there will be a lot of business knowledge you gain from the testing that is proprietary to you. Building it is only the first step, optimizing it is something totally different. In other words, the advantage is sustainable and as it is intellectual property combined with business knowledge, it is also defensible.

Am I crazy? Yes. (Hey, I race ATVs and LIKE it) Am I stupid? No. It's just physics applied differently.

I am not rich so I have to choose where my money is going to go. I gave up racing in 2019 to build a prototype (SxS sized, just starting the design process) but it also includes other suspension and drivetrain tech that isn't applicable here as this is an extreme terrain vehicle I'm building. My prototype will run about $50k (probably optimistically conservative), all of the IP will be another $50k, I have $10k (more if my toys sell) to spend so I am looking for ways to monetize this tech. A conversation about the best TT builder seemed like a good place to go, if for no other reason than I can approach them and see what plays out. Let's say it's Geiser, where do I even start with figuring out what a fair value would be to offer which makes it worthwhile for me and attractive to them? Hence my questions. I need money, need to get things built and get back to racing.

I know you all don't know me, but I did race the inaugural V2R in '96 on two wheels. I have a championship on 2 wheels in '96, one on a SxS in '15 and two on an ATV in '16 and '18. I have also done a ground up ATV build that tops out at 115mph, 18" front wheel travel and 20" rear wheel travel. It was during this ATV build that I was working on solving an issue I didn't like with the way the suspension worked that I came up with this new design that obsoleted what I was just working on. If you heard about an ATV getting hit by a TT during the 2017 V2R, that ATV driver was me. It hurt. It's been 17 months and time for me to get back into the designing and making of things that go fast so that's what I'm doing here. I have a passion for this sport, I want to leave a mark rather than just leave concepts in my garage and I'd also like to make a few dollars so I can make more things (it's a vicious circle :D ).

I don't know trucks and buggies, but I know what I developed applies to them just as much as an F1 racer just as much as an ATV or SxS. I DO know there's more money in trucks and buggies than ATVs, so here I am. Your perspective is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Alex
 

isdtbower

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This is going to be fun. But that approach is pretty well worn out in SoCal. If the idea is defensible, then it can be discussed using a NDA (Non disclosure agreement). But even then you might not get too much traction until there is a working/racing prototype. What you will be giving up in a NDA is your thought process to the "invention." They will be interested in the view you were looking from to get this novel idea. Most companies and race teams should listen to you. Then evaluate.
Or you can let race results do the talking. Cheers on the adventure.
 

Slippery P

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I don’t know who makes the best TT, as I don’t drive them. I will say this, the Geiser still wins more than any Of them!
 

Crusty Shellback

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So you are saying Jesse picked up the truck from Gieser, took it to the race and won? No testing and tuning? No adjustment's at all?

If so, then yes, I'm impressed.
 

AZ7000'

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More then once I think
 

DanMcMillin

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So you are saying Jesse picked up the truck from Gieser, took it to the race and won? No testing and tuning? No adjustment's at all?

If so, then yes, I'm impressed.

2010 San Felipe, Armin won the overall in a class 1 and Jesse was 2nd overall, 1st TT in what is/was the Menzies Geiser. One race and gone, and if my memory is right it had little to no test time. (I was 3rd Overall. Shocking, I know)
 

Wicked Al

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This is going to be fun. But that approach is pretty well worn out in SoCal. If the idea is defensible, then it can be discussed using a NDA (Non disclosure agreement). But even then you might not get too much traction until there is a working/racing prototype. What you will be giving up in a NDA is your thought process to the "invention." They will be interested in the view you were looking from to get this novel idea. Most companies and race teams should listen to you. Then evaluate.
Or you can let race results do the talking. Cheers on the adventure.

Thank Ben,

Yup, it's going to be a lot of fun! Not sure what you mean by "that approach is pretty worn out in SoCal". I have a fairly good NDA which is enough to get the conversation started for someone who is willing to spend a few minutes to understand what is on the table. This is something that as long as a person understands general force vectors and centers of mass, basic mechanical stuff, they will immediately see the benefit. As they begin to understand the concept, a plethora (I got that word from The Three Amigos, I'm that old :) ) of benefits start to appear and you go "wow". At least that was my reaction. I was just trying to solve one problem, when I found the solution to that problem it turns out it has a very wide range of benefits. If a circle encompasses your handling capability, this grows that circle. I haven't had anyone I've shown this to tell me it won't work, including my suspension tuner...and in the ATV world, he is a long time championship winning suspension tuner.

The vehicle I'm building will have this suspension on it, problem is that it will also have a lot of other things done to it, it's a new vehicle category. Although it's handling will be phenomenal, it would be difficult to say it was due to this one thing and there is no base unit to compare it to. What I need is to take an existing known design, make this one change and then have a side by side comparison to really quantify the benefit. On top of that I would like the base model to be considered leading edge so there is no mistake that it represents the best performance and my changes made it perform even better. Again, why I am on this thread. Find the best machine, make it better. There is no hiding or excuses in this approach. No builder would do it if they didn't think it would improve things, so all it starts with is a conversation. This brings me back to, what is an improvement like this worth at a hypothetical 3% improvement in quantifiable performance all other things being equal?

I want race results to do the talking, but I have to be able to get there from here...and frankly, I need help, or a lot of time and I'm trying to circumvent that time thing. Cash helps, co-conspirators help, understanding TT suspension specifics (loads, damping rates etc) would help in starting with a good first pass. One way or another I'll get there, like any good racer, I always strive for sooner rather than later.

Alex
 

Bricoop

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Thank Ben,

Yup, it's going to be a lot of fun! Not sure what you mean by "that approach is pretty worn out in SoCal". I have a fairly good NDA which is enough to get the conversation started for someone who is willing to spend a few minutes to understand what is on the table. This is something that as long as a person understands general force vectors and centers of mass, basic mechanical stuff, they will immediately see the benefit. As they begin to understand the concept, a plethora (I got that word from The Three Amigos, I'm that old :) ) of benefits start to appear and you go "wow". At least that was my reaction. I was just trying to solve one problem, when I found the solution to that problem it turns out it has a very wide range of benefits. If a circle encompasses your handling capability, this grows that circle. I haven't had anyone I've shown this to tell me it won't work, including my suspension tuner...and in the ATV world, he is a long time championship winning suspension tuner.

The vehicle I'm building will have this suspension on it, problem is that it will also have a lot of other things done to it, it's a new vehicle category. Although it's handling will be phenomenal, it would be difficult to say it was due to this one thing and there is no base unit to compare it to. What I need is to take an existing known design, make this one change and then have a side by side comparison to really quantify the benefit. On top of that I would like the base model to be considered leading edge so there is no mistake that it represents the best performance and my changes made it perform even better. Again, why I am on this thread. Find the best machine, make it better. There is no hiding or excuses in this approach. No builder would do it if they didn't think it would improve things, so all it starts with is a conversation. This brings me back to, what is an improvement like this worth at a hypothetical 3% improvement in quantifiable performance all other things being equal?

I want race results to do the talking, but I have to be able to get there from here...and frankly, I need help, or a lot of time and I'm trying to circumvent that time thing. Cash helps, co-conspirators help, understanding TT suspension specifics (loads, damping rates etc) would help in starting with a good first pass. One way or another I'll get there, like any good racer, I always strive for sooner rather than later.

Alex
As you're budget constrained, have you considered buying a couple older Polaris to be your mules?

Can we ask what initial problem you were looking to solve?
 

OFFRD-JNKIE

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As you're budget constrained, have you considered buying a couple older Polaris to be your mules?

Can we ask what initial problem you were looking to solve?
$$$$$ I think he is looking for someone to fund or partially fund a TT build using his suspension design.
 

Wicked Al

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As you're budget constrained, have you considered buying a couple older Polaris to be your mules?

Can we ask what initial problem you were looking to solve?

Sure, Initial problem;

How do you have full anti roll capabilities and still retain full articulation?

The answer to this problem yielded a LOT of other benefits for the chassis.

Always budget constrained, too many projects.

What I am looking for specifically here is to find a builder who has a customer that he feels would love to try something new and convince the builder this is something worth trying (once we have a conversation, shouldn't be an issue). This is not a build for me, I need to get the tech out on a chassis and put into use by the end customer so the value can be quantified. For this to make sense, both the builder and I need to make money off the deal and the customer needs a significant performance increase to have it make sense for them to spend that money. This is why I'm trying to get an idea for what $$ amount the market might pay. I DO need cash for the lawyers at some point before this can go public. If I know there is a revenue stream waiting for that though, I can make it happen myself.

My main project is building my extreme terrain vehicle. It is SxS sized, 60" wide, 88" wheelbase, 25.5" wheel travel, 35.5" wheel articulation (I know, right?), fully electric, 120+hp and about 120mile range. The power and range will be better calculated when I'm finished with the design and build as things will improve within the next year. It is a multi purpose, reconfigurable vehicle going from moving two pallets of goods, transporting 8 people, woodland firefighting to racing, fording streams and climbing hillsides. This is what will consume me, my time and money and it has so much more new tech than what I want to put in a TT. Ultimately this is what I need to fund and I want to do that through this suspension design for offroad racing. Trucks, buggies, SxSs... wherever the money is.
 

jon coleman

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best tt i have found is on race- dez classifieds, there are some smokin' deals ( relative) out there, untill i win lotto, ill keep playing my sony play station. rip pp
 

Bricoop

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All of this lends quickly to Hybrid technology. I bet we see it in a SXS in the next couple years. Too easy, cleans up the drive train issues, and maximizes turn and travel numbers comparable to TT. Drivers may love it.

Edit: 2WD, 4WD, Hybrid 4WD
Looks like someone has put Tesla motors in a truck. Not a hybrid, but a start.
 

Matt87_

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If you go off results, 2016 Baja 1000 Geiser 1st/2nd, 2017 Baja 1000 Geiser 1st/2nd, 2018 SF 300 Geiser 1st/2nd, 2018 Baja 500 Geiser 1st, 2018 Mint 400 Geiser 1st/2nd.
2017 Score TT champion Geiser 1st, 2nd/3rd
2016 Score TT Champion Geiser 1st
So based on results its the Geiser.
Was this with the 4wd machine?
 

Bricoop

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Was this with the 4wd machine?
I believe the winners were 2wd, but I think there were 4wd Geisers out. There were some creative trucks around that time, including the twin engine trophy truck.

Hard to argue against the current Mason Platform as the best TT available.
 

fastfelix

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Definitely agree. Alumicraft Dominates class 10 (obviously) and Jimco is my vote for best class 1, but best TT is a different story. Any one of the TSCO, Geiser, Jimco, Mason trucks have a Chance of winning at any time. Big time TT guys run on such a high/competitive level it takes SO much more to win then just a well built machine.
Forgot herbst
 

fastfelix

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My point is that nothing has been banned in off road racing because nobody in off road racing has spent $200 million developing technology that allows utter domination.

F1 used to have the same rule set as trophy trucks - unlimited. But then teams started spending preposterous amounts of money developing technology that allows them to dominate. And then the banning started.

TT development and the TT rule book is identical to F1 in the 1970's. Not F1 today. My fear is that TT racing will develop into F1 today, once somebody develops software to automate some part of the truck (most likely suspension).

If you gave me $200 million to spend, I could develop a trophy truck with an actively controlled hydraulic suspension, linked to a GPS system with topographical data of the course. Prerun the course and update your topographical map one week before the event. The truck then knows every major bump on the course, and what the suspension should should do in response.

That truck crushes everybody, but it's no fun.
I actually read aboa company doing something like this some years ago. I believe name was jri
 
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