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Will the new wall change off road racing below the border ?

J Burleson

Well-Known Member
No, I DO accept that illegal immigrants are not contributing to the tax base. But they also aren't sitting at the welfare office leaching off of it. Have you ever heard of the saying "dont complain about farmers with your mouth full"? Well, more accurately, "dont complain about illegal immigrants with your mouth full" The next time you enjoy a glass of milk, realize it was brought to you by, most likely, illegal immigrants. The farms that have been beatup by ICE have turned to automated milking systems. 2-3 people and a bunch of robots doing the job of 20 people. How much do robots contribute to the tax base? I am all for having a safe and secure country. But isolationism in our current state of the union wont work. Research what happened in Alabama when they rounded up and deported all of the illegal immigrant workers. It wasnt pretty. And the example of the stores never opening due to not be able to fill positions IS a valid point. This happened on '05,'06. It had nothing to with the collapse in 08-09.
The refugees fleeing their countries to Europe are NOT fleeing because their CULTURE became violent, they are fleeing because their authoritarian leaders turned violent. Looking at Syria, they are fleeing the murderous Assad regime. The same regime being propped up by Putin. (this leaves me baffled when the same people who hate the idea of muslim refugees, think our president being cozy with Russia is a good thing) My wifes family lives in Germany. They have all taken in Syrian refugees. Some are Muslim, some Christian. Some are doctors, some blue collar. They are ALL wanting to assimilate into German culture. The process has become very hard, and these people have been forced to rely on others until they are allowed to rely on themselves. For many, they dont have anyone to rely on. They are caught in a limbo between their dangerous native country, and one who's government isnt sure they want them their.
I lived in Burlington, VT for many years. Burlington was one of the original "asylum cities" for Somalian refugees during the Clinton administration. Do you know how many mass murders these refugees have commited? Exactly ZERO. Do you know how much they have contributed to the city and state both in sense of community, culture and tax base? ALOT!
 

You Mad Bro

Well-Known Member
Just to finish off, the Baja will always belong to Mexico.


So you Nutjobs who wish the U.S should buy Baja.. Not gonna happen.


America already looks bad for invading other countries, so why take a state away from your neighbor down south
 

vegasloki

Well-Known Member
Mr. Burleson- What you fail to accept is that there are PLENTY of 'mexicans' who come to this country legally every year. This country accepts a huge amount of LEGAL immigrants from throughout the world. It also receives hundreds of thousand of ILLEGAL immigrants from Mexico and points south. Every year. Every one of these illegal immigrants is a drain on our social services and pulls down the local wage scale for every legal resident that wants to work in THEIR OWN COUNTRY. Your point of stores not opening because they couldn't fill employee positions is ridiculous. Let me guess, it happened right around 2008? As a first generation American whose father had to wait 3 years to immigrate to this country LEGALLY, yeah, I understand it isn't Europe where you just walk across a border into another country and start draining their pool of taxes, not that easy. FOR A REASON. The strife that is occurring in Europe as we speak was caused by unfettered immigration of folks who were not looking to join another country and its culture, they were running from the lands they lived in because their culture became too violent. Huge difference and points out the reason why a country should be able to control its borders and who and how many others it lets in.

Net illegal immigration from Mexico has been largely neutral meaning almost as many return as cross. The increases are from people in Central America fleeing cartels and regimes. Legal immigration to the US (including green cards, H1B, etc) far exceeds illegal immigration. Over the last decade there has been a 90% drop in illegal immigration across the southern border. DHS stats from 2015 put the number at 170k. That's not exactly "hundreds of thousands" more like 100k and then some.

As far as a drain on social services, US citizens in poor states (primarily in the deep south) are responsible for the lion's share of federal tax dollars spent for assistance. As a resident of the Golden State you subsidize poor rural parts of Mississippi and Alabama (among others) more than the undocumented workers in your home state. The wages of most of the undocumented workers in CA are likely under the threshold for fed and state income taxes anyway like citizens living under the poverty line in the US.

Your views of how things are in Europe are ill informed and lead me think you've never spent much (if any) time there. You don't just "walk across the border" to "drain the pool of taxes". That's so not right it's not even wrong. Except for a core of western countries in the EU the rest of Europe still has border controls. Those in EU member states are more similar to walking across the CA/NV state line to work. That's part of the EU treaty, portability to live and work in member states which is subsidized by remittances to the EU. I've worked and lived over there for much of my adult life (and one of the kids is a dual national) and my direct, first hand experience is nothing like the rant you've posted. It's much more difficult to work illegally in an EU member state than in the US.
 

Cuban Mike

Member
there would be no illegal immigrants crossing the border if it wasn't for the American citizen hiring them trying to save on paying workers comp insurance. Same goes for smuggling drugs. Lets concentrate on the American citizens who are injecting and smoking the poison. Simple supply and demand folks! Cut the demand, problem solved.
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
Fact, there are 11 million illegal Mexican Immigrants in the U.S. Now. How neutral is that? Difference from the past to now? Now the immigrants coming from Mexico (legal and Illegal) are roughly split at 50/50 as to make-up. Used to be more like 80/20 Illegal to legal . Fact. Another fact- The reported 170k from DHS doesn't match the numbers reported for those years during those years. That was an Obama dream number after the fact. 2 years ago, there were over 170k CHILDREN alone that crossed the Mexican Border into the U.S. Adults were at least 3 times that number. How does the number change year after year? Reclassification of illegal immigrants into Dreamers is one way. Regarding the round-up in Alabama, I guess you are referring to the slaughterhouse round up. Where hundreds of Illegals were working slaughtering pigs and dressing out chickens. Hundreds of Illegals lost their jobs and many were deported. But it still doesn't deny the fact that they were taking jobs from legal residents who could have been doing those jobs. If the owner of the business was a stand-up guy, he wouldn't have hired them to begin with.

Businesses are suppose to work within the regulations that EVERYONE has to follow. When a company decides that they can save on hourly wages, benefit packages and workman's comp by hiring illegals for less money, guess who is getting screwed on that deal? It sure isn't the poor business owner who never gets fined or penalized for hiring illegal employees and pocketed the difference in labor costs compared to the guy who followed the rules and hired legal employees. The fact that you guys are missing the 'free market system' and the rules that make it work makes me wonder what else you are missing.

And my views about how things are in Europe are EXACTLY how things are in Europe right now. Once you are in the EU, you can travel, work, and qualify for Gov't Assistance wherever you land. Ask me how I know. I have someone from Belgium living in my house as we speak, since last July. The problems we are seeing in Europe are DIRECTLY a result of unfettered access and travel with no borders and no qualifications once inside. Can you please define an illegal worker who resides within any of the EU borders? Yes, it's a trick question, but answer it anyway.
 

vegasloki

Well-Known Member
Round up in Alabama? You may want to read the post again. The reference to Alabama is that you pay more for services for poor people born in the US that aren't in CA than you do for those not here legally. That kid in rural Appalachia hooked on heroin or meth costs you more than the guy standing outside Home Depot being exploited for cheap labor. Slow down a bit and read what is actually posted. If you can't have empathy for those that are doing whatever it takes for a better life for their family, that's on you. Your prerogative. Sad...

So you know about Europe because a guy from Belgium lives in your house? And you expect me to take you seriously about living and working in Europe? Have YOU ever worked in Europe? Have you ever been to Europe? An illegal worker in the EU is someone that is there working without the proper paperwork, pretty much the same as here. I've had work permits from many countries, including a blanket EU work permit. Mine were similar to how an H1B works but for a more limited time and limited only to a single employer. You can't just turn up and start working. Or rent an apartment or get a bank account in many places.
 

Bricoop

Well-Known Member
there would be no illegal immigrants crossing the border if it wasn't for the American citizen hiring them trying to save on paying workers comp insurance. Same goes for smuggling drugs. Lets concentrate on the American citizens who are injecting and smoking the poison. Simple supply and demand folks! Cut the demand, problem solved.
We're about to win this war on drugs, just need to lock a few more up. It's not like we haven't tried this for the past 45 years. Maybe a smarter approach is necessary.
 

Jorge Rodriguez

50% tortoise 50% hare
We're about to win this war on drugs, just need to lock a few more up. It's not like we haven't tried this for the past 45 years. Maybe a smarter approach is necessary.
You believe locking a few more up will win the war on drugs?

If you're referring to Chapo, there are dozens of people in line to take over. Not one thing will change with him in prison.

If you're referring to drug users, prisons are overrun by drugs and you'll never get all drug users off the streets. As stated before, simple supply and demand.

Finally, if you want to talk about a real drain on economy, you just named it, locked up drug offenders are a huge drain on our economy and they contribute nothing to society.


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JDDurfey

Well-Known Member
Businesses are suppose to work within the regulations that EVERYONE has to follow. When a company decides that they can save on hourly wages, benefit packages and workman's comp by hiring illegals for less money, guess who is getting screwed on that deal? It sure isn't the poor business owner who never gets fined or penalized for hiring illegal employees and pocketed the difference in labor costs compared to the guy who followed the rules and hired legal employees.
In 1998 my brother and I were fed up with the company we were working for so with no college education, no financial backing, and little money in our pockets we started our own landscaping company in Phoenix. The housing boom was just really ramping up and we did pretty good the first few years. We only hired legal, green card holding employees. I will admit on a very rare occasion we did pick up some extra help at Home Depot, or at 32nd st and Greenway Rd., but that was about twice a year.

I witnessed my business decline and the competition grow immensely in 01. It seemed like every where I turned there was a pick up with landscaping equipment and a business posted on the door picking up day laborers at Home Depot or where ever they congregated. Over night it seemed like there were a whole bunch of small companies that were using illegal labor. I was doing everything legal. My price was always competitive and usually better than the big companies, but I couldn't compete with the guy that used day laborers and paid them cash. I had workers comp, I paid taxes and employee taxes. At one point I even had insurance available for my guys when no one else that I knew of at that time with a company my size was offering it. My employees were very loyal to me, even though I was not the highest paying company. I treated them right and with respect for the good job they did for me. As I would go in and out of supply businesses I would listen and watch the other companies and I can say that many of the small companies like mine were using illegal labor. How was I supposed to compete with that. My employees were costing me $17 an hour at that time, so I charged $25 an hour to try to be competitive, but when my competition's employees only cost them $50 a day how could I compete?

I won't say that illegal laborers do not contribute to our country, they do. But at the same time, they hurt those that want to do it correctly. The argument that "they do the jobs no one else wants" is invalid. There are many of us that grew up working on farms that can do physical labor. If the only way I could provide for my family was to go work in the fields picking vegetables, I would do it. Would it suck? Absolutely, but if that is what I had to do I would. The problem we have is that welfare is so easily handed out that people who don't have an education (like me) can sit at their house and collect a hand out rather than go out and work for a living. So they do just that and companies hire illegals to fill those positions. We had a President that was proud of the fact that a whole bunch of people were added to the welfare program during his presidency. This is the exact opposite direction we need to be going.

Back to the topic at hand... Will the wall affect racing in Mexico? I don't think so. Most of the people I met in Baja over the years have little interest in immigrating to the states. I met a few that did, but were going about it legally. Could there be some animosity towards those north of the border? Possibly, but I don't think it will be a wide spread issue.
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
Round up in Alabama? You may want to read the post again. The reference to Alabama is that you pay more for services for poor people born in the US that aren't in CA than you do for those not here legally. That kid in rural Appalachia hooked on heroin or meth costs you more than the guy standing outside Home Depot being exploited for cheap labor. Slow down a bit and read what is actually posted. If you can't have empathy for those that are doing whatever it takes for a better life for their family, that's on you. Your prerogative. Sad...

So you know about Europe because a guy from Belgium lives in your house? And you expect me to take you seriously about living and working in Europe? Have YOU ever worked in Europe? Have you ever been to Europe? An illegal worker in the EU is someone that is there working without the proper paperwork, pretty much the same as here. I've had work permits from many countries, including a blanket EU work permit. Mine were similar to how an H1B works but for a more limited time and limited only to a single employer. You can't just turn up and start working. Or rent an apartment or get a bank account in many places.
So the MILLIONS who just came in can't get jobs, aren't working, aren't receiving assistance, etc, etc, etc...? And don't play the empathy card here. Empathy would be assisting Mexico achieve first world status so their people enjoyed the same living standards we do here, not enjoying the lower wages, working conditions, and lack of benefits the illegals receive and then send most of their pay to Mexico. That solves nothing and continues the problem. But hey, why SOLVE a problem when you can exploit it!
 

Bricoop

Well-Known Member
You believe locking a few more up will win the war on drugs?

If you're referring to Chapo, there are dozens of people in line to take over. Not one thing will change with him in prison.

If you're referring to drug users, prisons are overrun by drugs and you'll never get all drug users off the streets. As stated before, simple supply and demand.

Finally, if you want to talk about a real drain on economy, you just named it, locked up drug offenders are a huge drain on our economy and they contribute nothing to society.


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I guess I should have laid on the sarcasm a little thicker.
 

J Burleson

Well-Known Member
Here is what I am referring to in Alabama. I know it may be a bit of a stretch to think you'll watch Vice Media, as I'm sure they are on the ever growing list of "fake news" outlets.
Watch This 'VICE' Episode About Alabama's Harsh Anti-Immigration Laws - VICE

Brogil, you are failing to except that many, maybe not all, but many, employers don't hire illegals because of the low wages. They hire illegals because they are the only job seekers in many areas. The alternative is to close their business. Is that what you suggest they do? Is this better for the economy? In some cases in agriculture, it is the government themselves who forces the hand of the business. They subsidize big agribusiness, who pay low wages, and then set the price of the product. This leaves the small family farms with a choice. A-attempt to become one of the big farms, requiring lots of cheap labor B-close their farm C-live paycheck to paycheck and squeak by in life, working every waking hour. My father sold our dairy farm after going 4 years without a day off. Dairy farmers are making close to same per hundred weight today as they were in 1976 when my father sold.
Why is there more focus on the "drain" of illegal immigrants on our system, and almost no focus on companies like GE and Apple and -insert large corporation name here- that take their profits offshore and contribute NOTHING to our tax base?

And yes Bricoop, when using sarcasm on rdc, it's best to type *sarcasm* after it. Lol
 

Honda48X

Well-Known Member
Here is what I am referring to in Alabama. I know it may be a bit of a stretch to think you'll watch Vice Media, as I'm sure they are on the ever growing list of "fake news" outlets.
Watch This 'VICE' Episode About Alabama's Harsh Anti-Immigration Laws - VICE

Brogil, you are failing to except that many, maybe not all, but many, employers don't hire illegals because of the low wages. They hire illegals because they are the only job seekers in many areas. The alternative is to close their business. Is that what you suggest they do? Is this better for the economy? In some cases in agriculture, it is the government themselves who forces the hand of the business. They subsidize big agribusiness, who pay low wages, and then set the price of the product. This leaves the small family farms with a choice. A-attempt to become one of the big farms, requiring lots of cheap labor B-close their farm C-live paycheck to paycheck and squeak by in life, working every waking hour. My father sold our dairy farm after going 4 years without a day off. Dairy farmers are making close to same per hundred weight today as they were in 1976 when my father sold.
Why is there more focus on the "drain" of illegal immigrants on our system, and almost no focus on companies like GE and Apple and -insert large corporation name here- that take their profits offshore and contribute NOTHING to our tax base?

And yes Bricoop, when using sarcasm on rdc, it's best to type *sarcasm* after it. Lol
Wow, I'm curious how old you are because when I was a teenager I got on a bus and went and picked strawberries. In fact almost all kids did that, but maybe that's why we have such a good work ethic. You are so wrong when you say only illegals will work on the farms. Lets just say there where no Illegals, guess what the farmer would advertise for workers and they would have to pay a little more for the work but trust me the work would get done. Yes maybe you would have to pay more at the grocery store for those products but it would have been done legally by legal workers.
 

Honda48X

Well-Known Member
Round up in Alabama? You may want to read the post again. The reference to Alabama is that you pay more for services for poor people born in the US that aren't in CA than you do for those not here legally. That kid in rural Appalachia hooked on heroin or meth costs you more than the guy standing outside Home Depot being exploited for cheap labor. Slow down a bit and read what is actually posted. If you can't have empathy for those that are doing whatever it takes for a better life for their family, that's on you. Your prerogative. Sad...

So you know about Europe because a guy from Belgium lives in your house? And you expect me to take you seriously about living and working in Europe? Have YOU ever worked in Europe? Have you ever been to Europe? An illegal worker in the EU is someone that is there working without the proper paperwork, pretty much the same as here. I've had work permits from many countries, including a blanket EU work permit. Mine were similar to how an H1B works but for a more limited time and limited only to a single employer. You can't just turn up and start working. Or rent an apartment or get a bank account in many places.
And do you not think there are any Illegals hooked on drugs in CA? Oh and the other day when I was in the emergency room I overheard plenty of people saying they had no insurance. Who do you think pays for that? Well that would be me and the other tax payers that work our butt off only to pay more and more in taxes every year to pay for this.
 

Jorge Rodriguez

50% tortoise 50% hare
And do you not think there are any Illegals hooked on drugs in CA? Oh and the other day when I was in the emergency room I overheard plenty of people saying they had no insurance. Who do you think pays for that? Well that would be me and the other tax payers that work our butt off only to pay more and more in taxes every year to pay for this.
So they said they were illegal and had no insurance or you just assume that they were all illegal?


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Honda48X

Well-Known Member
So they said they were illegal and had no insurance or you just assume that they were all illegal?


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I'm not exactly sure Jorge. They were speaking in Spanish really fast and I speak some Spanish and understand what people are saying but at the speed they were talking I had a hard time. Let's put it this way, the hospital is in a small town where there are many known illegals that work the fields. Let me also say that under Obamacare everyone is supposed to have insurance right? Those that wouldn't would be illegal or not following the law.
 

Jorge Rodriguez

50% tortoise 50% hare
I'm not exactly sure Jorge. They were speaking in Spanish really fast and I speak some Spanish and understand what people are saying but at the speed they were talking I had a hard time. Let's put it this way, the hospital is in a small town where there are many known illegals that work the fields. Let me also say that under Obamacare everyone is supposed to have insurance right? Those that wouldn't would be illegal or not following the law.
I work for social services and there are thousands of citizens that don't have health insurance. Most don't care enough to get it and since they don't work, they can't be tax intercepted or fined. They find it easier to go to the hospital each time they have a cold rather than fill out an application for Medi-Cal.


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vegasloki

Well-Known Member
I'm not exactly sure Jorge. They were speaking in Spanish really fast and I speak some Spanish and understand what people are saying but at the speed they were talking I had a hard time. Let's put it this way, the hospital is in a small town where there are many known illegals that work the fields. Let me also say that under Obamacare everyone is supposed to have insurance right? Those that wouldn't would be illegal or not following the law.

I see, the ol' "they were brown and I didn't speak their language" metric of determining citizenship. Ethnic profile much? People have green cards or if they were ag workers they could have guest worker docs. Regardless, there are many, many more poor, non brown people in places like Raymond or Colville that were born here, speak english and use services without paying taxes. As for the ACA mandate, the IRS just released guidance indicating the question on your federal tax return regarding having insurance is optional now. IOW, you don't have to tell them if you had insurance last year. The ACA made is possible for many that didn't have insurance to get it, but there are still millions of natural born citizens without health insurance. It made a dent in the number of uninsured but wasn't close to covering everyone.
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
Mr. Burelson- I am not failing to accept that. What I will admit to is that many employers will hire the illegals because their competition is hiring them and to to make as much money as their competition, they do the same thing. I have not said I condone the fact that the Gov't does not do more enforcement r.e. labor code violations hiring those who are not legal. If I were king, I would fine an employer 3 times what the annual pay for each illegal they hire would be. And I would deport the illegal worker. Has nothing to do with 'white folks won't do the jobs...' but it has everything to do with 'why should folks do the jobs for the low pay the employer is offering when unemployment pays them almost as much to not work...' and ' As long as the employer can hire illegals for 5-10 bucks an hour less and minus the benefits, why would someone legal go work there?' Get it? The employer would be forced to pay more for said job if they couldn't offer it o an illegal, then folks might line up to do it. But don't let a comparative free market left to actually work fit into the conversation, we are suppose to have more compassion for the folks who come here illegally than we are those who are her legally, right?
 
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