Would you use this line?

Would you use this line?

  • Yes

    Votes: 77 60.6%
  • No

    Votes: 50 39.4%

  • Total voters
    127
  • Poll closed .

Chase 2

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Maybe you are seeing something different than me. Where are you seeing we should stay on the race course from now on?

YOU CAN'T SEE THAT??? Are you serious?? You really don't understand "stay on the race" course"? It has always been there.

Staying on the race course means you no longer can go straight up the hill or use the line to the right. Ask the Japanese guys who won class 50 how hard it is to stay on the race course. Duh...

Dude.... use the link I provided on the other thread and get some relief for that rash.
 

Jerry B

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Have in the past

Why not ask at the drivers meeting before the race SIMPLE as hell in front of everyone. “Sal can we use the cut off over the side off the highway at Santa Tomas?” END OF QUESTION although it has been a legal line in the past and even Helen Keller knows about this line but all the lawyers seem to have a problem with what is cutting and what is not. Split lines like in Matomi have been used for years now but you need to ask before the race. Just follow the GPS track simple as hell.

Fish will need to fix the tulips for it to

Add
142A either or @ RM can be used.

140 Stay Straight - rock wall on right 7.76 348.59
141 Left at four way intersection, then follow residential street to highway 1.51 350.10
142 Left onto HWY 1 @ Santo Tomas (60 MPH ZONE FOR 6.8 MILES) 0.15 350.25
143 Military inspection area on highway before Uruapan 4.93 355.18
144 Right Off HWY 1 @ KM 40.5 / Acambaro Restaurant Bar & Market 1.86 357.04

What sucks is we have been paying for the dam trackers think they had been stopping the carp only to find out it was all just money wasted. The 500 carp should of came down the first race we used the dam trackers years ago not this many years later. At lest now it will be a lot more far for the ones who do not have the time and money to go and live in baja looking for cuts.
 

Tundranation

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This line is not easy by any means...thus making it one of the most popular spectator spots at the end of the race ! :eek: People have been using it for years ! If there is no wrong way signs and you got the sack, then I would say roll it ! :D when approaching it on the highway it looks like the preferred line ! The locals love it ! :D
 

J Caster

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YOU CAN'T SEE THAT??? Are you serious?? You really don't understand "stay on the race" course"? It has always been there.

Staying on the race course means you no longer can go straight up the hill or use the line to the right. Ask the Japanese guys who won class 50 how hard it is to stay on the race course. Duh...

Dude.... use the link I provided on the other thread and get some relief for that rash.

No I don't seem to be reading this as clearly as you are. This line is clearly 50' off the race course yet not one racer was penalized for it including myself.

Is Score really enforcing its rules now? Not anymore than the selective enforcement they have done for a long time now.
 

Chase 2

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No I don't seem to be reading this as clearly as you are. This line is clearly 50' off the race course yet not one racer was penalized for it including myself.

Is Score really enforcing its rules now? Not anymore than the selective enforcement they have done for a long time now.

What you fail to understand is that SCORE has the right to choose to enforce the course deviations anywhere they want. Do you fully expect SCORE to go over every single race mile on every single race vehicle entered in the race?? They simply choose locations to enforce the rule and the one Andy has questioned here happens to not be one of those enforced. The fact that SCORE chooses only a select group of deviation locations to penalize should be enough to force everyone to stay on the race course all the way. Sure, someone may be able to use a line in an area SCORE hasn't enforced in the past, but they do so at the risk that SCORE could include that section for enforcement.

You never replied to the question of "is the line further to the right acceptable or not?"
 

J Caster

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What you fail to understand is that SCORE has the right to choose to enforce the course deviations anywhere they want. Do you fully expect SCORE to go over every single race mile on every single race vehicle entered in the race?? They simply choose locations to enforce the rule and the one Andy has questioned here happens to not be one of those enforced. The fact that SCORE chooses only a select group of deviation locations to penalize should be enough to force everyone to stay on the race course all the way. Sure, someone may be able to use a line in an area SCORE hasn't enforced in the past, but they do so at the risk that SCORE could include that section for enforcement.

You never replied to the question of "is the line further to the right acceptable or not?"

I understand that Score can choose to do pretty much anything they want. I fail to see how this partial or selective enforcement of the rules really changes anything compaired to what has happened at past Score races. Lots of people have been praising Score for finally bringing the hammer down and enforcing their rules. How is this any different than their enforcement of the rules in the past? They say Score has let the racers get away with to much in the past and never really enforced the 50' or shortcoursing rule. Here is a clear example of them still not enforcing the rule but for some reason you can all make some sort of excuse for them not enforcing it.

If things were different and Score decided to enforce this line instead of the SV line we would all be still having the same talks. I really don't care at this point if Score wants to make this or any other lines illegal or not. I just want to know which ones they are before the race. I also want to see them enforce the rules 100% if they are going to start penalizing so many racers.

To answer your question about the line further to the right or east.
I did prerun that line. After running it, I thought it had to much silt and rocks in it to take the chance. Not once did it cross my mind that the line may be illegal. Both of these lines have been used at many Score races. In fact I was hoping all my competitors would take that line because I knew it was slower and had more chances of problems. I took the line strait up the hill.

Now if Score wants to start penalizing racers for the 50' rule at this race then so be it. However I believe Score needs to enforce that rule everywhere. And I say that knowing that we will recieve a penalty for my deviation at this section of the course. Afterall how is deviating from one area of the course any different than another?

Let's just say you raced and finished 20 seconds behind the leader in your class. Neither of you took the line in SV however the guy who finished just 20 seconds ahead of you took a shortcut that saved him 1 min. Wouldn't you like to see him penalized for taking that line? At this point it wouldn't really matter to you where Score had decided to enforce. It would only matter that he cut which saved him time and this took the win from your team. How would you protest this 3-4 weeks after the race? And would you be happy with everyone saying how awesome it is that Score is finally enforcing the rules? No you would still want that guy penalized for deviating no matter where it was!
 

JohnnyAirtime

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I understand that Score can choose to do pretty much anything they want. I fail to see how this partial or selective enforcement of the rules really changes anything compaired to what has happened at past Score races. ........ How is this any different than their enforcement of the rules in the past? .................

I really don't care at this point if Score wants to make this or any other lines illegal or not. I just want to know which ones they are before the race. I also want to see them enforce the rules 100% if they are going to start penalizing so many racers.........

From an outsider looking in...

How does it change what has happened at past races? They are NOW enforcing. In the past, they never did... just threatened to do so. "HOW" they enforce, is up to them and always will be. I call it "Scared Straight - Sal Style"

Don't care about which lines are illegal? Then why ask which ones "are" before the race...? (Isn't that a double negative)... It's almost as if asking to know where they'll be enforcing the rules, so you can deviate. (however, I think I know that is quite the opposite of what you mean) ... and how can they enforce 100%, when the course isn't marked 100%?!

... difference is, I know you simply want ALL the course to be enforced. And if they can't do such a thing (accurately) or aren't doing such a thing, you simply want to know where you need to pay particular attention to 'staying on the course' so to not get dinged by their "custom" enforcement. Your trying to play by the rules, but can't seem to get the rules clarified (so to speak).

Here's some "IFs" that I also know have been beat to death;
- IF the course is marked properly, you have no reason to stray from course.
- IF you know which lines are enforced, will you use the non-enforced areas to gain time or benefit the team?
- IF you have no idea of where they'll enforce, will it help you pay more attention during pre-running and learning the real intended path (via GPS, course markers, or past knowledge of cheats and short course areas to stay away from)?
- IF you know the entire course is being enforced, how do you know which line is legal and which isn't? ... (see 1st "IF")

And how the heck did the Japanese team stay on course... when 89% of the field had a problem?! Sadly, thats the truth about teaching an old dog new tricks.... it'll take time, but soon... Sal will have everyone on course, and very little strays (pun intended)

...I dunno... just sayin. ;) But there are sure A LOT of holes in this bucket.
 

JohnnyAirtime

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.......

Looks to me like everyone is going to have to stay on the race course from now on. What was used in the past is in the past, and what you will not get penalized for in the future is following the SCORE GPS track.

I remember Sal's GPS track not always being accurate. In fact, 2006 500... there were several spots in the first 150 miles that were "off", and either marked with stakes... and not GPS. Or were GPS'd and not staked. In fact, there was also a last minute change around a silty uphill... where drivers were cutting through thick brush to get around, and he made it "legal" to use the new path (to avoid a fustercluck like Simpsons) - but it wasn't noted on the mileage (cliff notes) pdf, or anywhere but at the drivers meeting (verbally)

He's going to have to be 'spot on' from now on. Pressure is on, both him... and the racers for sure.
 
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Ok we've had a couple of talks now. So seeing your answer to this question, I now have some questions for you.

You said above that Sal himself said you can use that line. Now if you took this line during the race and were penalized after the fact don't you think you would be just a little bit upset? Please tell me how this is any different than any other area of the course. It is not different.

You also said that you don't believe that is one of the areas he is worried about. How do you know this for sure? You find out after the race:eek:.

Good questions.
 
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Throw this in the arguement. In the 2008 Baja 500 the hill was marked as a either/or but the GPS Trail only went up the Highway. Chase 2, these are very valid points and questions being raised, and your "Stay on the course" mantra does not work. It sounds simple, it is not!
 

harleys dad

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I tried that line going up at the 500 a few years back in Clydes 1600 car. I got 3/4 of the way up and turned around LOL I could not climb it!! Not even close. I have gone down it a gazillion times, even in a class 11 when it was smoother. The time it was horrible getting a run at it, there was no way the year I turned around. I laughed all the way down at how stupid it was to try. In something with HP is one thing, a overloaded Lothringer 1600 was out of the question LOL and we were leading at the time. Duh The reason I tried is the traffic was backed all the way around. This was rite before 60 MPH speed was madatory
 

Chase 2

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......... and your "Stay on the course" mantra does not work. It sounds simple, it is not!

We all know that SCORE has been technophobic since Day 1. Its only been a couple of years now that they have provided a GPS track.

Finding and following the intended race course is much simpler than trying all of the different lines that have been used in the past and deciding which are going to be the best to use on race day.

Looks like SCORE will have to mark better than they have been.
 

Hbomber

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Chase 2 brought up a great point. We've been using these trackers for a few years now. If SCORE has had this info for past races, why have there never been any penalties. I would find it highly unlikely that this is the first race that there was speeding, course deviation, and missing data infractions. Heck, I was passed at last year's Baja 500 while leading the overall ATV by 2nd. I was going under 60 and my competitor went by 5th gear pinned. Yet, there was no penalty. If we were paying for these trackers, why weren't they used until now? And another big question is, how accurate has SCORE been in it's enforcement of the Baja 500?
 

Dern y Paulina

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18 years ago I was riding with my dad. He said, "Let's take my new short cut" and started to crank the wheel in that direction. This was going down the grade and scared the youknowwhat out of me. He laughed, corrected the wheel and continued on down the highway. From then on I've called that line "Papa's shortcut". Every single time I pass Papa's shortcut I ask myself if I would take it...Aside from all the drama this question has sturred up, the original poll did make me smile.

P.
 

spi6616

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It absolutely amazes me how anyone can argue a 50' rule issue on this route. Regardless of being used for the last 40yrs or not! The rules are clear 50' on each side of the track period. I feel I am listening to a bunch of 3rd graders that have no accountability for their actions on the playground. COME ON PEOPLE! We are adults here right? Accept the penalties, argue before the race starts on track configuration, and play by the rules like we were all taught in grade school. Be accountable for your actions everyday. This Millennium Generation is driving me crazy (a bunch of enabled brats that think all rules have a grey area) Your MOMMY is not here to argue with your math teacher on why your homework wasn't done! Take you swats and sit down NEXT!!!!!
 

harleys dad

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I can say forsure in the 70s and 80s that line was marked course going down
 

Hbomber

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It absolutely amazes me how anyone can argue a 50' rule issue on this route. Regardless of being used for the last 40yrs or not! The rules are clear 50' on each side of the track period. I feel I am listening to a bunch of 3rd graders that have no accountability for their actions on the playground. COME ON PEOPLE! We are adults here right? Accept the penalties, argue before the race starts on track configuration, and play by the rules like we were all taught in grade school. Be accountable for your actions everyday. This Millennium Generation is driving me crazy (a bunch of enabled brats that think all rules have a grey area) Your MOMMY is not here to argue with your math teacher on why your homework wasn't done! Take you swats and sit down NEXT!!!!!

Great point, it is clearly 50' off course and against the rules. So why wasn't anyone penalized for it, since it is clearly illegal? There are numerous other examples of this as well throughout the course. I think the issue that the competitors have is, why are the rules only enforced in selective areas? And unless the data is public, who is to say it is being equally enforced at all. If you spent tens of thousands of dollars and endless amounts of time to compete in this race and you were passed for the lead on this line and lost by 30 seconds only to find out that the other team wasn't penalized and the rules weren't enforced, I think you would have an issue with it. The only way this can be fixed is for SCORE and the competitors to get together in a CRB and clearly define the rules and their enforcement.

Sign the petition. http://www.gopetition.com/online/29055.html
 

spi6616

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Great point, it is clearly 50' off course and against the rules. So why wasn't anyone penalized for it, since it is clearly illegal? There are numerous other examples of this as well throughout the course. I think the issue that the competitors have is, why are the rules only enforced in selective areas? And unless the data is public, who is to say it is being equally enforced at all. If you spent tens of thousands of dollars and endless amounts of time to compete in this race and you were passed for the lead on this line and lost by 30 seconds only to find out that the other team wasn't penalized and the rules weren't enforced, I think you would have an issue with it. The only way this can be fixed is for SCORE and the competitors to get together in a CRB and clearly define the rules and their enforcement.

Sign the petition. http://www.gopetition.com/online/29055.html

This is certainly an issue!!!!! Selective course cutting penalizing should not be tolerated either! If SCORE missed this by human error then that is one thing, if it is disregarded because of an impossible advantage could be another. I don't support or condone any course deviation whatsoever so, if someone was not penalized for that infraction this would need to be addressed through proper channels (Deliberation, Arbitration, etc.).
 

Vtr_Racing

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I personally have never used it during a race. If its marked ok to use as an either or, its ok to use, if its not, its not ok to use.
I guess by somes standards, I dont know shize...:cool:
 
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