Limit the amount of riders per team @ SCORE?

Chainguide

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I have been racing SCORE off and on since 1974. Back then you were only allowed 2 riders per bike team. For instance for the 1000, it was basically a quick discussion of " OK, I'll do the start and hand it off to you half way and you do the finish" Fast forward to present times and you'll see as many as 6 guys on one team doing the SF 250. I bring this up as I am watching the number of bike entries dwindling drastically over the years. I think back at the 2008 500 we had as many as 150 moto teams entered and at this past Baja 500, we only had around 15 bike teams. I realize that this could be attributed to many factors such as COVID, The Economy, The price of entry fees, The beat up courses, etc. I also think that with the current lesser amount of teams per class, that some teams are thinking why bother when there is only 1 or 2 teams or even no other teams to race against. I hate seeing this decline of entries in the moto classes so I want to float this trial balloon. What if SCORE lowered their entry fees a decent bit, but also limited the amount of teammates per moto entry? For instance the SF 250 would be limited to 2 riders, the Baja 400 & 500 would be limited to 3 riders and the Baja 1000 would be limited to 4 riders. This might accomplish a few things that would be good for the sport. It would encourage more entries as the 6 guys that were on one bike team at the SF 250 may end up forming 3 teams of 2 instead of 1 team of 6. This might also help eliminate the posers with the big wallets who buy teams and claim to be a Baja Champion, but only ride about 20 feet at the start and then hand off to the real racers to do the heavy lifting. If this does initially increase the the amount of entries, then hopefully it will encourage others to race as it becomes a bigger deal again. So what are your thoughts? Comments? Flame on.
 

Rslhc

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I commented in the other thread as well. But three big problems I see:

1. Not offering anything unique for Moto guys. After a while the appeal of beating yourself up on the same SF whoop section is probly getting old for some of these teams. Other stateside events are starting to do Moto only sections of the course to keep it interesting and mix in some fun single track type terrain.

2. Perceived disregard for safety. We get it, desert racing in Mexico is dangerous, but score seems to minimize any safety efforts with motor aside from a stupid early AM start time. There is certainly some room to improve and find ways to get better.

3. Cost. Current pro class entries plus baja pits, Stella mount, and transponder come to $4970. Makes it hard for grass roots racing teams that off-road is built off of. Add to that a $10k-15k bike and prep, and all the travel and logistics cost and it gets out of hand fast with cost. All the while, events like the Mint 400 stateside are cheaper, closer to home, and feature Moto-specific segments for better safety and enjoyment.
 

slim01

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I really don't know how you could get any satisfaction competing in a race with 5 other riders in your team. Its no longer an endurance race for 1 or 2 riders but now up to 6 individual sprints in one race.

I was expecting a more animated reply from Tim ............. ;)
 

El Mamito USMC

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I commented in the other thread as well. But three big problems I see:

1. Not offering anything unique for Moto guys. After a while the appeal of beating yourself up on the same SF whoop section is probly getting old for some of these teams. Other stateside events are starting to do Moto only sections of the course to keep it interesting and mix in some fun single track type terrain.

2. Perceived disregard for safety. We get it, desert racing in Mexico is dangerous, but score seems to minimize any safety efforts with motor aside from a stupid early AM start time. There is certainly some room to improve and find ways to get better.

3. Cost. Current pro class entries plus baja pits, Stella mount, and transponder come to $4970. Makes it hard for grass roots racing teams that off-road is built off of. Add to that a $10k-15k bike and prep, and all the travel and logistics cost and it gets out of hand fast with cost. All the while, events like the Mint 400 stateside are cheaper, closer to home, and feature Moto-specific segments for better safety and enjoyment.
specially #3
 

Rslhc

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The recent Honda teams have often had 3 riders as well. Last year with Mark Samuels breaking his legs before the 1000, they had a 4 man team, but they are back to Morgan, Samuels, and Jones for this year's 1000.
 

Jshultz

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Andy, I agree with you bud, and I think the total cost for a team is what's driving people away. I love Baja and love racing there. but to spend the amount of money for the year to race a bike is ridiculous. the Pro Entry is basically the same as a Trophy truck entry. TT teams now have the deep pockets, and book all the hotels, which has increased the amount of renevue that the hotel can then decide to charge, so it's increasing cost's across the board. The Bike is the cheap part now.
 

Chainguide

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Andy, I agree with you bud, and I think the total cost for a team is what's driving people away. I love Baja and love racing there. but to spend the amount of money for the year to race a bike is ridiculous. the Pro Entry is basically the same as a Trophy truck entry. TT teams now have the deep pockets, and book all the hotels, which has increased the amount of renevue that the hotel can then decide to charge, so it's increasing cost's across the board. The Bike is the cheap part now.
I will be down for the 1000 working in the war room again and will have this conversation with Jose G. So we will see what comes of it.
 

El Mamito USMC

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Andy, I agree with you bud, and I think the total cost for a team is what's driving people away. I love Baja and love racing there. but to spend the amount of money for the year to race a bike is ridiculous. the Pro Entry is basically the same as a Trophy truck entry. TT teams now have the deep pockets, and book all the hotels, which has increased the amount of renevue that the hotel can then decide to charge, so it's increasing cost's across the board. The Bike is the cheap part now.
exactly, cost is just way out of control, but i still have faith to win the lottery.. LOL
 

DRZ_Motorsports_119

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In my personal opinion,

1) Yes, entry fees are over the roof compared to 10+ years ago maybe 2x or 3x.

2) Brand new bikes are more expensive to buy from dealership + modifications to make it race-ready, even used bikes prices are over the roof. Back then you could buy an XR for $2-3K just service and minor race prep, and go racing in Baja.

3) Are the younger generations interested in Endurance Racing?

4) SCORE needs to lower entry fees for Motorcycles and ATV's and evolve the format in general (Factory involvement, structure, sponsorship, fees, etc).

5) MC/ATV Class structure for riders (max):

a) Open Pro = 2-3 riders

b) Limited Pro = 2-3 riders

c) Class 30 and 40 = 3-4 riders

d) Class 50 and 60 = 4-5 riders

e) Sportman = 4 riders

f) Pro ATV = 3-4 riders

g) Sportman ATV = 4-5 riders

h ) Add ATV Ironman

i) Add 250/ 300cc 2 strokes to a new class

6) ROR needs to race 1/4 of the racecourse (minimum)

7) Injured ROR use a backup rider to race (1 time per season)

8) SCORE needs to use barcodes in helmets like GNCC to police riders at checkpoints.

9) Bring back 6AM start for bikes, starting bikes at night add the costs for shorter races and PITA for starting rider.

10) I think that today's Baja courses are way rougher than 10+ years ago, but it's Baja.
 

Hayward Racing

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Overall I don't think SCORE can/will lower fees enough to warrant enforcing a rider limit..

In my personal opinion,

1) Yes, entry fees are over the roof compared to 10+ years ago maybe 2x or 3x.
Nothing like racing Baja but the dollar per mile ratio is higher than every other org

2) Brand new bikes are more expensive to buy from dealership + modifications to make it race-ready, even used bikes prices are over the roof. Back then you could buy an XR for $2-3K just service and minor race prep, and go racing in Baja.
Racing ATV's you think would be cheaper considering almost everyone is using a 15+ year old platform. We are lucky that our builder and prep guy race with us.

3) Are the younger generations interested in Endurance Racing?
NOPE! Some of the newer ATV guys are flippin fast. 5-6 guys sprinting 40-80 miles per section is the norm. We race SPTS ATV and run with 5 as well but we should get a pass as we only have 1 guy under 40 😁

4) SCORE needs to lower entry fees for Motorcycles and ATV's and evolve the format in general (Factory involvement, structure, sponsorship, fees, etc).
I can see growth for the Moto classes but ATV racing is dead

5) MC/ATV Class structure for riders (max):

a) Open Pro = 2-3 riders

b) Limited Pro = 2-3 riders

c) Class 30 and 40 = 3-4 riders

d) Class 50 and 60 = 4-5 riders

e) Sportman = 4 riders

f) Pro ATV = 3-4 riders

g) Sportman ATV = 4-5 riders

h ) Add ATV Ironman
Sounds fun but will anyone sign up?

i) Add 250/ 300cc 2 strokes to a new class

6) ROR needs to race 1/4 of the racecourse (minimum)

7) Injured ROR use a backup rider to race (1 time per season)

8) SCORE needs to use barcodes in helmets like GNCC to police riders at checkpoints.
I like it but GNCC is single rider. If someone wants to cheat you could get around this 🤮

9) Bring back 6AM start for bikes, starting bikes at night add the costs for shorter races and PITA for starting rider.
Also you get way less sleep leading up to the start with the weird schedule. As a racer it's easier to deal with but for chase no bueno

10) I think that today's Baja courses are way rougher than 10+ years ago, but it's Baja.
I imagine that's because of TT evolution, bigger tires, etc. I know there is evolution in each class but how much faster can motos and quads go? At this point I need my shock guy to keep evolving :p
 

BajaboundMoto

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In my personal opinion,

1) Yes, entry fees are over the roof compared to 10+ years ago maybe 2x or 3x.
2) Brand new bikes are more expensive to buy from dealership + modifications to make it race-ready, even used bikes prices are over the roof. Back then you could buy an XR for $2-3K just service and minor race prep, and go racing in Baja.
3) Are the younger generations interested in Endurance Racing? THEY LIKE UTVs
4) SCORE needs to lower entry fees for Motorcycles and ATV's and evolve the format in general (Factory involvement, structure, sponsorship, fees, etc). NO, AIN'T HAPPENING. PRO MX TEAMS ARE FOLDING, NO MOTO MFG IS GONNA WASTE THEIR $ ON BAJA.
a) Open Pro = 2-3 riders - 3
b) Limited Pro = 2-3 riders - 3
c) Class 30 and 40 = 3-4 riders - 4
d) Class 50 and 60 = 4-5 riders - 5 and 6 (except if Andy or Jack Johnson is on a 60 team, then it's max 4)
e) Sportman = 4 riders
f) Pro ATV = 3-4 riders
g) Sportman ATV = 4-5 riders
h ) Add ATV Ironman NO
i) Add 250/ 300cc 2 strokes to a new class NO
6) ROR needs to race 1/4 of the racecourse (minimum) YES
7) Injured ROR use a backup rider to race (1 time per season)
8) SCORE needs to use barcodes in helmets like GNCC to police riders at checkpoints. NO, THERE'S ONLY LIKE 3 CHECKS, AND THEY'RE KNOWN, TOO EASY TO AVOID GETTING CAUGHT
9) Bring back 6AM start for bikes, starting bikes at night add the costs for shorter races and PITA for starting rider. - NO , YES IS A PITA IN SOME WAYS BUT THE NIGHT STARTS HAVE PROVEN TO HAVE FEWER INJURIES BEFORE SUNRISE AND THE GAP BETWEEN 1ST TRUCK IS, IN THEORY, LONGER, AS LONG AS THEY KEEP THE TRUCKS AT 10'ish AM.
10) I think that today's Baja courses are way rougher than 10+ years ago, but it's Baja. 100% MORE CHOPPED UP
Here's part of the problem with bike entry fees.... Bike riders keep needing help when they wad themselves up. Bike guys use a lot of resources.
 

knotcher

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I've only done the Mexican 1000 in 19 so I don't know a ton, but what I can say is that as someone who is just starting out in Baja, the Baja and Sonora Rally events are more appealing, based on what I know now. After a while smashing busted up roads will get old and if something goes wrong and you end up behind the trucks, it sucks (happened one day due to assisting a rider). More technical sections with some single track is just more fun for more moto riders.

Also, I imagine as the courses have gotten tougher (so I've heard) the risks of racing in the dark may be eliminating more riders. The margins for error are just so slim.

But I'm new, so I could be way off.
 
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